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Forums - Sony Discussion - Has the Playstation Move's apparent success made people go crazy?

BMaker11 on 24 October 2010
Seece said:
CGI-Quality said:

Excellent points. Just remember, people who don't favor something will always "question" what's true or not, while other, more reasonable individuals give each side a chance.

From my vantage point, Move is a success.

Adn those that favour it blindy accept the positive and ignore the negative, works both ways. Surprised you didn't point that out ...

and what's negative about selling millions of copies, and ramping up production multiple times? Please, do tell



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jneul on 24 October 2010
buzzard said:
thismeintiel said:
buzzard said:

The 1 million figure is for all the Americas (NA and Latin America)

Not according to this source. 

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/10/sony-move-controllers-playstation-3-ship.html


Yes according to the original source: http://www.industrygamers.com/news/ps3s-move-has-sold-1-million-units-in-north-america/

 

jneul said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:

@ starcraft

You just reinforced Point 3.  And you do realize Sony can't lie about their numbers, right?

You disagreeing with Pachter doesn't for a moment mean he jumped the gun.  His recent statements are in line with VGC.

And you're fundamentally incorrect.  Sony cannot lie in their financial reports (though there are limits to how clear and open they have to be).

But their PR department just about exists to lie, and it can do so with virtual impunity.

Of course he jumped the gun.  He admited it himself.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/10/sony-move-controllers-playstation-3-ship.html

And the statements regarding how many Moves were sold were not made by Sony's PR department.  They were made by Sony's CEO's of America and Europe.  It would be almost impossible for them to lie about these numbers, as doing so would harm the company.  Both in reputation and sales.

Mate, you really need to examine your assessment of the shipped versus sold argument, as well as rethink your perception of how these CEO's are required to operate and how we would prefer they operate.

Actually, I think my assessment is pretty spot on.  And I guess you just have a general mistrust of any CEO, then?  Nintendo and MS included?  Trust me, if it was found out they were lying (which financial reports would show), then they would be canned for hurting the company's rep.  It's as simple as that.

Of course, in a consumer-based, competitive and high pubilicity environment I am highly skeptical of taking the word of ANY CEO at face value. 

The link you provided indicated NO evidence of any sell through to consumers, other than the writer's own (unsubstantiated) assertions.  On the other hand, VGC and Pachter more recently have both offered evidence that contradicts YOUR assertions.

And the CEO will not be canned for misleading the public, as that is all he did.  He did not lie.  Sony has indeed sold 2.5 million units to RETAILERS!

Again, you continue to reinforce Point 3.  The article qoutes Pachter as saying, "It's ahead of what I thought previously."  This means it doesn't matter what Pachter had estimated before, as he is saying he was WRONG.  As far as VGC is concerned, they are also making estimates.  Ones that ioi admits uses controller data from previous consoles to come to those estimations.  However, with the Move, there are just way too many variables to consider, so there's basically no way of knowing how accurate VGC is.

Why are you mentioning sell-through?  Reinforcing Point 1.  No one is talking about sell-through.  And the CEO's are not misleading anyone, as ALL companies (even Nintendo and MS) report shipped numbers.  Know why?  Because those numbers are finite, not estimations, and are accurate.  Like I said, I doubt anyone will be screaming "IT'S SHIPPED NOT SOLD!!" when MS releases their Kinect numbers.

@jneul

lol, I forgot to point out that those numbers are without Japan.  Something tells me Japan is going to have very similar numbers to US and Canada.  Actually, that brings up another point.  That 1 mil shipped figure is reportedly only for the US and Canada, and does not include the whole of Americas.

darth told me users on neogaf are reprting move sold out in japan already and it's only been  acouple of days, this should make this thread more fun when we get the real data from sony.

the fact is everyone was too quick to call move a flop based on vgc figures since we now all know that figure is wrong, we can all finally move on, move is not a flop

How do you know the VGC figure is wrong if we don't have any concrete sold to consumer data? Shipments are irrelevant, the PSP Go still hasn't sold it's FIRST shipment.


Well it does not take much logic to figure it out sony would not have had to increase move production if it sold 600k worldwide with a possible maxim of 2.5 m moves available, not to mention in europe move had an adoption of 60%-100% in places see my analysis in the move tracker thread, it does not take a genius to figure out 600k is way too low



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Seece on 24 October 2010
BMaker11 said:
Seece said:
CGI-Quality said:

Excellent points. Just remember, people who don't favor something will always "question" what's true or not, while other, more reasonable individuals give each side a chance.

From my vantage point, Move is a success.

Adn those that favour it blindy accept the positive and ignore the negative, works both ways. Surprised you didn't point that out ...

and what's negative about selling millions of copies, and ramping up production multiple times? Please, do tell

I didn't mean that, I meant anything that doesn't paint move in the most favourable light, like SC selling 80k in NPD Sep. I'm not posting any personal opinions of mine about Move here, just saying people argue the negative (or less postive if you like) as much as those that argue the positives.



 

nickvasko on 24 October 2010

you made some good points



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Seece on 24 October 2010
kowenicki said:

I dont think either Sony or MS are making a peripheral for the sake of selling a peripheral.

MOVE and Kinect will only be a success if they drive significant, prolonged extra console sales and software sales as far as I and I'd bet SONY/MS are concerned.

 

 

 

It's quite evident this is an afterthought from Sony, and until recently showed zero passion for Move. I think they care about it as much as Microsoft did HD DVD, they're behind it, but they won't cry a river if it fails ..



 

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IMU1808 on 24 October 2010

I find some of the excuses hilarious... Like "They're counting PS Eye's and Nav's!!".



justinian on 24 October 2010
drkohler said:
Squilliam said:

The total number of Move only software titles sold is the only metric which counts. It is the only metric by which developers will use to justify further support over the longer term of 1-3 years and it is the only metric which is directly comparable to other platforms.

Complete and utter bullshit. Software companies are looking at how fast a possible market is expanding within the first weeks and how wide the "event horizon" is in coming years. Nobody gives a sh*t whether Sports Champions sells 1,10,1000 or 1'000'000 units now.

I wish people would stop arguing with Starcraft, Squiliam and the other XBox fanatics. It must really be frustrating for them to see that Sony actually was correct with the Move hardware. It sells. It sells even more than they anticipated. This whole thing has been beaten to death multiple times but here are the main points again:

1. vgchartz numbers are way off. it is simply wrong assumptions that lead to their low numbers (and the idiot Pachter really is not worth a discussion). Software is NO MEASURE AT ALL whether Starter Packs sell or not - most people buy just the starter pack (or an accessory if they already have the camera).

2. Move units = mostly Starter Packs (in Europe, as observed in Italy, Spain, Switzerland).

3. Sell through rate is approximately 60-100% depending on product (Dildos and Navs apprpx 100%, again, as reported from Italy, Spain, France). There is absolutely no channel stuffing an no retailer uild up for XMas.

4. Sony has increased manufacturing twice, and curently ships _by air_ .

Again, it must be really frustrating for all the Kinect fanatics who expected to kill Move sales by 10:1 or whatever their pipe dreams are.


Yes, I agree with what you said about Squillian and his MS (not only x360) fanaticism but he does have a point.

What you said about developers and the expanding market is also true.

Both need to come together for Move (and soon kinect) to be a success.

In other words good hardware and software sales are required. Selling 20million Move controllers is good for Sony but not a total success if the Move only software have very poor sales. Sony depend on software sales as much as the developers.

Ultimately both the Move hardware and Move software depend on each other. Good Move hardware sales give developers more confidence to make games because of the install base.

Good Move software titles can create interest and generate Move hardware sales.

So Squillian saying that Move software sales is important is true but it is not the only metric that counts, just 50% of it.



IMU1808 on 24 October 2010
Seece said:
kowenicki said:

I dont think either Sony or MS are making a peripheral for the sake of selling a peripheral.

MOVE and Kinect will only be a success if they drive significant, prolonged extra console sales and software sales as far as I and I'd bet SONY/MS are concerned.

 

 

 

It's quite evident this is an afterthought from Sony, and until recently showed zero passion for Move. I think they care about it as much as Microsoft did HD DVD, they're behind it, but they won't cry a river if it fails ..


I'm pretty sure MS' HD-DVD add-on didn't take up more than 60% of one of their E3 conferences and had strong showings at pretty much all of their conferences like SONY's Move in recent conferences in the past year or 2...

EDIT: Not to mention just look at the bulk of SONY games release this half of the year. Compare the number of Move titles to standard retail SONY releases...



cory.ok on 24 October 2010

the move will probably continue getting support on the sole reason that its easy for developers to add support for move into their games.  why wouldnt they add move support and give people another way to play their games?

there are already 54 games that are confirmed to start releasing with move support. 



buzzard on 24 October 2010
jneul said:
buzzard said:
thismeintiel said:
buzzard said:

The 1 million figure is for all the Americas (NA and Latin America)

Not according to this source. 

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/10/sony-move-controllers-playstation-3-ship.html


Yes according to the original source: http://www.industrygamers.com/news/ps3s-move-has-sold-1-million-units-in-north-america/

 

jneul said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:
starcraft said:
thismeintiel said:

@ starcraft

You just reinforced Point 3.  And you do realize Sony can't lie about their numbers, right?

You disagreeing with Pachter doesn't for a moment mean he jumped the gun.  His recent statements are in line with VGC.

And you're fundamentally incorrect.  Sony cannot lie in their financial reports (though there are limits to how clear and open they have to be).

But their PR department just about exists to lie, and it can do so with virtual impunity.

Of course he jumped the gun.  He admited it himself.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/10/sony-move-controllers-playstation-3-ship.html

And the statements regarding how many Moves were sold were not made by Sony's PR department.  They were made by Sony's CEO's of America and Europe.  It would be almost impossible for them to lie about these numbers, as doing so would harm the company.  Both in reputation and sales.

Mate, you really need to examine your assessment of the shipped versus sold argument, as well as rethink your perception of how these CEO's are required to operate and how we would prefer they operate.

Actually, I think my assessment is pretty spot on.  And I guess you just have a general mistrust of any CEO, then?  Nintendo and MS included?  Trust me, if it was found out they were lying (which financial reports would show), then they would be canned for hurting the company's rep.  It's as simple as that.

Of course, in a consumer-based, competitive and high pubilicity environment I am highly skeptical of taking the word of ANY CEO at face value. 

The link you provided indicated NO evidence of any sell through to consumers, other than the writer's own (unsubstantiated) assertions.  On the other hand, VGC and Pachter more recently have both offered evidence that contradicts YOUR assertions.

And the CEO will not be canned for misleading the public, as that is all he did.  He did not lie.  Sony has indeed sold 2.5 million units to RETAILERS!

Again, you continue to reinforce Point 3.  The article qoutes Pachter as saying, "It's ahead of what I thought previously."  This means it doesn't matter what Pachter had estimated before, as he is saying he was WRONG.  As far as VGC is concerned, they are also making estimates.  Ones that ioi admits uses controller data from previous consoles to come to those estimations.  However, with the Move, there are just way too many variables to consider, so there's basically no way of knowing how accurate VGC is.

Why are you mentioning sell-through?  Reinforcing Point 1.  No one is talking about sell-through.  And the CEO's are not misleading anyone, as ALL companies (even Nintendo and MS) report shipped numbers.  Know why?  Because those numbers are finite, not estimations, and are accurate.  Like I said, I doubt anyone will be screaming "IT'S SHIPPED NOT SOLD!!" when MS releases their Kinect numbers.

@jneul

lol, I forgot to point out that those numbers are without Japan.  Something tells me Japan is going to have very similar numbers to US and Canada.  Actually, that brings up another point.  That 1 mil shipped figure is reportedly only for the US and Canada, and does not include the whole of Americas.

darth told me users on neogaf are reprting move sold out in japan already and it's only been  acouple of days, this should make this thread more fun when we get the real data from sony.

the fact is everyone was too quick to call move a flop based on vgc figures since we now all know that figure is wrong, we can all finally move on, move is not a flop

How do you know the VGC figure is wrong if we don't have any concrete sold to consumer data? Shipments are irrelevant, the PSP Go still hasn't sold it's FIRST shipment.


Well it does not take much logic to figure it out sony would not have had to increase move production if it sold 600k worldwide with a possible maxim of 2.5 m moves available, not to mention in europe move had an adoption of 60%-100% in places see my analysis in the move tracker thread, it does not take a genius to figure out 600k is way too low


And that's the thing, they're not trustworthy. They try to pass anything of theirs as a success (according to them PSPGo is a success). I won't belive them until there's further evidence of what they are saying. If it's true that they increased Move production then we should be getting information about new shipments pretty soon. If that happens then I concede I was wrong, but I very much doubt that.