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Forums - Sony - A lower price PS3 = Complete BlueRay dominence. How can Sony do it?

makingmusic476 on 09 December 2007

The price difference between HD DVD and Blu-Ray players is quickly disappearing. The ps3 was only meant to carry Blu-Ray until the major CEs could get their hardware costs down and reach mass market prices.

Prices on the SALs are now dropping, and the ps3 is now handing the ball over...

The Samsung BD-P1400 is currently $297.95 at Amazon.com.

From Engadget:

With prices on HD DVD players in a perpetual state of free fall, it was only a matter of time before the slashings bled over to the other camp. Sure enough, Samsung's fairly well spec'd BD-P1400 -- which was announced at $549 and sold at $499 in late August -- has sunk to $298.76 at Amazon. In case you needed a refresher, this one's packing 1080p24 support, Dolby Digital Plug / True HD, DTS HD, HDMI 1.3, 1080p DVD upconversion and a pretty snazzy design, too. And hey, if you need extra incentive, there's always the five free flicks that come along with it.

[Thanks, Adam]


Also, posters on HighDefDigest.com are claiming that the Sony BDP-S300 will be only $299 at Circuit City from 12/16 to 12/22.

In comparison, the Toshiba HD-A3 HD DVD player is currently $249 at Circuit City and $199 at Amazon. HD DVD's price advantage is slowly disappearing. By Holiday '08 it will be completely gone.



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makingmusic476 on 09 December 2007
madskillz said:
misterd said:
BR is already dominating, with sales at 2:1 or 3:1. The problem is HDDVD is too stubborn to die, and are trying to pay off studios to keep the format alive a litle longer (I believe the Paramount exclusivity contract expires after 2008).

As is, the PS3 is losing a good chunk of change for Sony, and I doubt that they had planned on having 2 price cuts within the span of 6 months. I think they are doing all that they can do at this point. I would not expect another price drop until this spring at the earliest.

The irony is that the BR is part of what makes the PS3 so expensive, and thus shares a good deal of blame for that systems' low sales, but at the same time the PS3 sales are great next to stand alone HD players, so the PS3 is the thing that gave the 360 the edge. I can only wonder what would have happened had the 360 launched with built in HD, or Sony had launched without it.


Actually, the PS3 is the only thing keeping BR ahead. In a standalone fight, HD DVD is whipping the devil out of BR. However, the PS3 sales are counted as BR sales, and with a lackluster gaming lineup, gamers have no real choice but to buy BR movies while they wait for more good games. Ironically, another report, though older, said that 79 percent of HD movie/hardware sales were video-game related.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html

Toshiba states they are, not Sony, leading in standalone HD players sold:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/CEDIA/Toshiba_Refutes_Sonys_Claims_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

And those NPD numbers put HD DVD players at 55 percent, with standalone BR players at 42 percent. Those numbers don't include the 360 HD DVD add-on, nor the PS3.

This format war is far from over. Until Sony and the BR camp can counter Black Friday $99 HD DVD players that also include free HD DVD movies, it will be a long, drawn-out war. I could see if there was a clear-cut advantage to owning a BR player, except the better movie lineup, but everything else is exactly the same - with HD DVD players, with Internet access, have many, many more Web-based features and my personal favorite, region-free movie playback.


HD DVD players were a few hundred dollars cheaper than Blu-Ray players from 2006 until just a few months ago, yet they only have an 13% advantage in SAL sales? What about now, when Blu-Ray players are withing a mere $100 of the cheapest HD DVD players?

And those numbers don't include the many people that bought ps3s instead of a SAL. Many people bought a ps3 as a dedicated Blu-Ray player because it is the best player on the market, and is completely upgradeable to BDJ 2.0. Just go to the AVS or High Def Digest forums. Most of the Blu-Ray owners on these websites own a ps3 and bought it strictly for Blu-Ray playback. How many of these people would've bought SALs if the ps3 hadn't existed? After all, studio support, scratch resistant disc coating, and HD extras due to larger storage capacity are justifiable reasons to purchase a more expensive player.

Warner will decide this war by going exclusive one way or the other. Do you think they'll care about HD DVD's 13% lead in SAL sales, when there are over 2 mil. ps3s in the US alone, and Blu-Ray is selling twice as much software every week? You can imagine HD DVD winning in a world where the ps3 doesn't exist, but it doesn't change the fact that the ps3 does exist, and HD DVD is losing severly because of it.



madskillz on 09 December 2007
halil23 said:
madskillz are you really a mad skills or just a retards sony hater, think it the latter :P Anyway I haven't yet brought a ps3 (also a hdtv) but plan to buy it in mid 2008. But if sony make a deal where you buy a sony bravia and get a free ps3 (like they did with ps2 deal, minus the hd) then I'm sold :)

Reformed Sony fanboy. Bought the PS1, PS2 and PSP before I wised up. When Sony decided to go for a quick buck, start orphaning their products far before they needed to (20gb PS3, PS2 HDD, BC and *core values,*), that's when I got off the merry-go-round.

Folks can say what they want, but gamewise, the PS3 lineup doesn't excite me (and the other folks who bought a 360 instead of a PS3) one bit. Maybe that will change in 2008, but right now, all I see are tons of PS3 titles hyped as system sellers and nothing more than glorified flops. Uncharted looks interesting, but I need more than two titles to make me shell out $500 for a video game system.

As far as BR dominance, you can gladly have your leashed format. Not me. And folks are really starting to ask questions about the formats - like "Why BR is so much more expensive than HD DVD and offers nada but studio support?"

My real question is - without the PS3 trojan horse thing, would you still have bought a BR player? 



makingmusic476 on 09 December 2007
madskillz said:
halil23 said:
madskillz are you really a mad skills or just a retards sony hater, think it the latter :P Anyway I haven't yet brought a ps3 (also a hdtv) but plan to buy it in mid 2008. But if sony make a deal where you buy a sony bravia and get a free ps3 (like they did with ps2 deal, minus the hd) then I'm sold :)

Reformed Sony fanboy. Bought the PS1, PS2 and PSP before I wised up. When Sony decided to go for a quick buck, start orphaning their products far before they needed to (20gb PS3, PS2 HDD, BC and *core values,*), that's when I got off the merry-go-round.

Folks can say what they want, but gamewise, the PS3 lineup doesn't excite me (and the other folks who bought a 360 instead of a PS3) one bit. Maybe that will change in 2008, but right now, all I see are tons of PS3 titles hyped as system sellers and nothing more than glorified flops. Uncharted looks interesting, but I need more than two titles to make me shell out $500 for a video game system.

As far as BR dominance, you can gladly have your leashed format. Not me. And folks are really starting to ask questions about the formats - like "Why BR is so much more expensive than HD DVD and offers nada but studio support?"

My real question is - without the PS3 trojan horse thing, would you still have bought a BR player?


There are more differences between the formats than just studio support. Blu-Ray discs have a scratch resistant coating. It may be necessary because of the design of the discs, but it doesn't change the fact that it's there, and it's very useful.

Also, the added storage capactiy of Blu-Ray is very useful for the studios. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoneix is a prime example of this. The Blu-Ray version has an extra 44 min. A&E special on the disc that the HD DVD version doesn't have, and most of the extra features, including this A&E special, the Trailing of Tonks featurette, and a few other things are in HD, whereas the specials on the HD DVD version are all in SD. Also, far more Blu-Ray titles have lossless audio than HD DVD, though I realize few people care about that.



madskillz on 09 December 2007
makingmusic476 said:
madskillz said:
misterd said:
BR is already dominating, with sales at 2:1 or 3:1. The problem is HDDVD is too stubborn to die, and are trying to pay off studios to keep the format alive a litle longer (I believe the Paramount exclusivity contract expires after 2008).

As is, the PS3 is losing a good chunk of change for Sony, and I doubt that they had planned on having 2 price cuts within the span of 6 months. I think they are doing all that they can do at this point. I would not expect another price drop until this spring at the earliest.

The irony is that the BR is part of what makes the PS3 so expensive, and thus shares a good deal of blame for that systems' low sales, but at the same time the PS3 sales are great next to stand alone HD players, so the PS3 is the thing that gave the 360 the edge. I can only wonder what would have happened had the 360 launched with built in HD, or Sony had launched without it.


Actually, the PS3 is the only thing keeping BR ahead. In a standalone fight, HD DVD is whipping the devil out of BR. However, the PS3 sales are counted as BR sales, and with a lackluster gaming lineup, gamers have no real choice but to buy BR movies while they wait for more good games. Ironically, another report, though older, said that 79 percent of HD movie/hardware sales were video-game related.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html

Toshiba states they are, not Sony, leading in standalone HD players sold:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/CEDIA/Toshiba_Refutes_Sonys_Claims_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

And those NPD numbers put HD DVD players at 55 percent, with standalone BR players at 42 percent. Those numbers don't include the 360 HD DVD add-on, nor the PS3.

This format war is far from over. Until Sony and the BR camp can counter Black Friday $99 HD DVD players that also include free HD DVD movies, it will be a long, drawn-out war. I could see if there was a clear-cut advantage to owning a BR player, except the better movie lineup, but everything else is exactly the same - with HD DVD players, with Internet access, have many, many more Web-based features and my personal favorite, region-free movie playback.


HD DVD players were a few hundred dollars cheaper than Blu-Ray players from 2006 until just a few months ago, yet they only have an 13% advantage in SAL sales? What about now, when Blu-Ray players are withing a mere $100 of the cheapest HD DVD players?

And those numbers don't include the many people that bought ps3s instead of a SAL. Many people bought a ps3 as a dedicated Blu-Ray player because it is the best player on the market, and is completely upgradeable to BDJ 2.0. Just go to the AVS or High Def Digest forums. Most of the Blu-Ray owners on these websites own a ps3 and bought it strictly for Blu-Ray playback. How many of these people would've bought SALs if the ps3 hadn't existed? After all, studio support, scratch resistant disc coating, and HD extras due to larger storage capacity are justifiable reasons to purchase a more expensive player.

Warner will decide this war by going exclusive one way or the other. Do you think they'll care about HD DVD's 13% lead in SAL sales, when there are over 2 mil. ps3s in the US alone, and Blu-Ray is selling twice as much software every week? You can imagine HD DVD winning in a world where the ps3 doesn't exist, but it doesn't change the fact that the ps3 does exist, and HD DVD is losing severly because of it.


Yeah, I stated that earlier. Those numbers are standalone units - not the PS3 or the 360 add-on. And it's losing because of the fact it really doesn't make sense for someone to not buy a PS3 instead of a SABR - you get a free game system.  But at what cost? Sony is pushing the format - and losing gobs of money in the process. Will it be worth it - to lose a ton of money in hopes of recouping it? What will Sony's investors say? "Yeah, you won the war, but you are broke as the devil?" What does Sony really want to accomplish? And at what costs?

The fact of the matter is - adding BR cost Sony crucial time and yeah, it is beating the HD DVD crowd, but unfortunately, its price is really making gamers - in the U.S. - stop and pause before getting the system. 



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makingmusic476 on 09 December 2007
madskillz said:
makingmusic476 said:
madskillz said:
misterd said:
BR is already dominating, with sales at 2:1 or 3:1. The problem is HDDVD is too stubborn to die, and are trying to pay off studios to keep the format alive a litle longer (I believe the Paramount exclusivity contract expires after 2008).

As is, the PS3 is losing a good chunk of change for Sony, and I doubt that they had planned on having 2 price cuts within the span of 6 months. I think they are doing all that they can do at this point. I would not expect another price drop until this spring at the earliest.

The irony is that the BR is part of what makes the PS3 so expensive, and thus shares a good deal of blame for that systems' low sales, but at the same time the PS3 sales are great next to stand alone HD players, so the PS3 is the thing that gave the 360 the edge. I can only wonder what would have happened had the 360 launched with built in HD, or Sony had launched without it.


Actually, the PS3 is the only thing keeping BR ahead. In a standalone fight, HD DVD is whipping the devil out of BR. However, the PS3 sales are counted as BR sales, and with a lackluster gaming lineup, gamers have no real choice but to buy BR movies while they wait for more good games. Ironically, another report, though older, said that 79 percent of HD movie/hardware sales were video-game related.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html

Toshiba states they are, not Sony, leading in standalone HD players sold:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/CEDIA/Toshiba_Refutes_Sonys_Claims_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

And those NPD numbers put HD DVD players at 55 percent, with standalone BR players at 42 percent. Those numbers don't include the 360 HD DVD add-on, nor the PS3.

This format war is far from over. Until Sony and the BR camp can counter Black Friday $99 HD DVD players that also include free HD DVD movies, it will be a long, drawn-out war. I could see if there was a clear-cut advantage to owning a BR player, except the better movie lineup, but everything else is exactly the same - with HD DVD players, with Internet access, have many, many more Web-based features and my personal favorite, region-free movie playback.


HD DVD players were a few hundred dollars cheaper than Blu-Ray players from 2006 until just a few months ago, yet they only have an 13% advantage in SAL sales? What about now, when Blu-Ray players are withing a mere $100 of the cheapest HD DVD players?

And those numbers don't include the many people that bought ps3s instead of a SAL. Many people bought a ps3 as a dedicated Blu-Ray player because it is the best player on the market, and is completely upgradeable to BDJ 2.0. Just go to the AVS or High Def Digest forums. Most of the Blu-Ray owners on these websites own a ps3 and bought it strictly for Blu-Ray playback. How many of these people would've bought SALs if the ps3 hadn't existed? After all, studio support, scratch resistant disc coating, and HD extras due to larger storage capacity are justifiable reasons to purchase a more expensive player.

Warner will decide this war by going exclusive one way or the other. Do you think they'll care about HD DVD's 13% lead in SAL sales, when there are over 2 mil. ps3s in the US alone, and Blu-Ray is selling twice as much software every week? You can imagine HD DVD winning in a world where the ps3 doesn't exist, but it doesn't change the fact that the ps3 does exist, and HD DVD is losing severly because of it.


Yeah, I stated that earlier. Those numbers are standalone units - not the PS3 or the 360 add-on. And it's losing because of the fact it really doesn't make sense for someone to not buy a PS3 instead of a SABR - you get a free game system. But at what cost? Sony is pushing the format - and losing gobs of money in the process. Will it be worth it - to lose a ton of money in hopes of recouping it? What will Sony's investors say? "Yeah, you won the war, but you are broke as the devil?" What does Sony really want to accomplish? And at what costs?

The fact of the matter is - adding BR cost Sony crucial time and yeah, it is beating the HD DVD crowd, but unfortunately, its price is really making gamers - in the U.S. - stop and pause before getting the system.


Sony is still making a profit over all, so they won't be "broke as devil" by any means.  Also, winning the format war means they (and Panasonic, etc.) will be making loads in disc royalties.

Both Sony and Toshiba are putting a lot on the line right now.  Sony has been subsidizing the ps3 like mad.  Similarly, Toshiba has been subsidizing there players, in order to keep nice price advantage on hardware. The main difference between HD DVD and Blu-Ray players is the lens, so the actual difference in cost is a few bucks per player. Toshiba also provided Paramount/Dreamworks with $150  mil. in marketing incentives back in August.  Then there's all the disc giveaways both sides have been doing.  Of course, Toshiba has DVD royalites to help cover the costs.

Both sides are spending loads on this war, because if they when, they'll win big. 



shams on 09 December 2007

Both formats are pretty much irrelevant at the moment. I'm watching excellent quality HD movies/shows now - by using a DVD player that upsamples to 1080i, supports DIVX (and other formats) and has a USB port.

Our TV channels now broadcast in HD digital - and thats all free of course.

...

In short, the HD disc formats just don't provide enough upside from the current DVD format. Once the price comes down to something much more mass market, both formats will start to have more significant sales - and maybe more of an impact.

At the moment, you are talking about 5% of the total revenue from a DVD release.



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Rugger08 on 09 December 2007

It's funny that the sony fanboys are now using arguments like "lots of PS3 sold just as blu-ray players" to defend sony against the HD-DVD, but it makes PS3 sales look even shittier if true since no person would buy 360 and add on just as HD-DVD player.

The fanboys can't make up their mind, defend PS3 or Blu-Ray? I know, its a tough choice.



Interests: Government, Sports, Accounting, Computers and Business

FinalEvangelion on 09 December 2007
makingmusic476 said:
madskillz said:
makingmusic476 said:
madskillz said:
misterd said:
BR is already dominating, with sales at 2:1 or 3:1. The problem is HDDVD is too stubborn to die, and are trying to pay off studios to keep the format alive a litle longer (I believe the Paramount exclusivity contract expires after 2008).

As is, the PS3 is losing a good chunk of change for Sony, and I doubt that they had planned on having 2 price cuts within the span of 6 months. I think they are doing all that they can do at this point. I would not expect another price drop until this spring at the earliest.

The irony is that the BR is part of what makes the PS3 so expensive, and thus shares a good deal of blame for that systems' low sales, but at the same time the PS3 sales are great next to stand alone HD players, so the PS3 is the thing that gave the 360 the edge. I can only wonder what would have happened had the 360 launched with built in HD, or Sony had launched without it.


Actually, the PS3 is the only thing keeping BR ahead. In a standalone fight, HD DVD is whipping the devil out of BR. However, the PS3 sales are counted as BR sales, and with a lackluster gaming lineup, gamers have no real choice but to buy BR movies while they wait for more good games. Ironically, another report, though older, said that 79 percent of HD movie/hardware sales were video-game related.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html

Toshiba states they are, not Sony, leading in standalone HD players sold:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Hardware/Toshiba/CEDIA/Toshiba_Refutes_Sonys_Claims_of_Blu-ray_Stand-Alone_Player_Dominance/943

And those NPD numbers put HD DVD players at 55 percent, with standalone BR players at 42 percent. Those numbers don't include the 360 HD DVD add-on, nor the PS3.

This format war is far from over. Until Sony and the BR camp can counter Black Friday $99 HD DVD players that also include free HD DVD movies, it will be a long, drawn-out war. I could see if there was a clear-cut advantage to owning a BR player, except the better movie lineup, but everything else is exactly the same - with HD DVD players, with Internet access, have many, many more Web-based features and my personal favorite, region-free movie playback.


HD DVD players were a few hundred dollars cheaper than Blu-Ray players from 2006 until just a few months ago, yet they only have an 13% advantage in SAL sales? What about now, when Blu-Ray players are withing a mere $100 of the cheapest HD DVD players?

And those numbers don't include the many people that bought ps3s instead of a SAL. Many people bought a ps3 as a dedicated Blu-Ray player because it is the best player on the market, and is completely upgradeable to BDJ 2.0. Just go to the AVS or High Def Digest forums. Most of the Blu-Ray owners on these websites own a ps3 and bought it strictly for Blu-Ray playback. How many of these people would've bought SALs if the ps3 hadn't existed? After all, studio support, scratch resistant disc coating, and HD extras due to larger storage capacity are justifiable reasons to purchase a more expensive player.

Warner will decide this war by going exclusive one way or the other. Do you think they'll care about HD DVD's 13% lead in SAL sales, when there are over 2 mil. ps3s in the US alone, and Blu-Ray is selling twice as much software every week? You can imagine HD DVD winning in a world where the ps3 doesn't exist, but it doesn't change the fact that the ps3 does exist, and HD DVD is losing severly because of it.


Yeah, I stated that earlier. Those numbers are standalone units - not the PS3 or the 360 add-on. And it's losing because of the fact it really doesn't make sense for someone to not buy a PS3 instead of a SABR - you get a free game system. But at what cost? Sony is pushing the format - and losing gobs of money in the process. Will it be worth it - to lose a ton of money in hopes of recouping it? What will Sony's investors say? "Yeah, you won the war, but you are broke as the devil?" What does Sony really want to accomplish? And at what costs?

The fact of the matter is - adding BR cost Sony crucial time and yeah, it is beating the HD DVD crowd, but unfortunately, its price is really making gamers - in the U.S. - stop and pause before getting the system.


Sony is still making a profit over all, so they won't be "broke as devil" by any means. Also, winning the format war means they (and Panasonic, etc.) will be making loads in disc royalties.

Both Sony and Toshiba are putting a lot on the line right now. Sony has been subsidizing the ps3 like mad. Similarly, Toshiba has been subsidizing there players, in order to keep nice price advantage on hardware. The main difference between HD DVD and Blu-Ray players is the lens, so the actual difference in cost is a few bucks per player. Toshiba also provided Paramount/Dreamworks with $150 mil. in marketing incentives back in August. Then there's all the disc giveaways both sides have been doing. Of course, Toshiba has DVD royalites to help cover the costs.

Both sides are spending loads on this war, because if they when, they'll win big.


 Exactly.  If you look at the history of Sony, as a company, they are doing much better than they were at other times in the last ten years.  Sony as a company was having it alot worse when Toshiba and Samsung stepped up the competition in Televisions and Apple started dominating the portable music market.  Now they are doing really well in other markets like digital cameras and notebook PCs.  

 

As for HD formats, the data storage aspect will be alot more important than its use as a movie format. 



"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  --Hermann Goering, leading Nazi party member, at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials 

 

Conservatives:  Pushing for a small enough government to be a guest in your living room, or even better - your uterus.

 

makingmusic476 on 09 December 2007
Rugger08 said:
It's funny that the sony fanboys are now using arguments like "lots of PS3 sold just as blu-ray players" to defend sony against the HD-DVD, but it makes PS3 sales look even shittier if true since no person would buy 360 and add on just as HD-DVD player.

The fanboys can't make up their mind, defend PS3 or Blu-Ray? I know, its a tough choice.

I get to play games like Uncharted and watch movies like Pirates of the Carribean and Harry Potter in HD.  Sucks to be you. :|