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Forums - General - Is athiesm a belief? What is "God?"

libellule said:
Reasonable said:
libellule said:
Reasonable said:
libellule said:

OF COURSE it is a belief

same goes for Science (and Evolution for exemple)

Personnally, I try to not really ask me the "God question" since I do consider it is REALLY underproductive : I have just no clue if God exists or not, neither I feel important to ask me this question.

So, I do not believe in God, I dont know if God exists and I dont ask me this question.
I m so a "default" non God believer. ...

Having say this, I strongly consider religion to be EXTREMELY underproductive considering how easy they can separate people based on "useless" belief ... 

Sorry, got to pick you up on this.  Science is not, absolutely not, I mean really, really NOT a belief.

Science is about facts and evidence.  With science, the principle is to have no belief whatsoever.  If you need to believe in science then you're either missunderstanding it or don't want - which is understandable - to take the time to check it yourself - I don't in many cases, but let's not confuse what that means.

For example, I believe E=MC2.  But only because I am comfortable that it has been well proven and tested.  But I don't have to believe in it and I don't in the same principle as religion.  If I want, I can work out that E=MC2 because it can be done and come to the same answer.  In short, anything in science can be repeatably and reliably re-tested by anyone who wants to do so.

Another example, I don't have to believe in astronomers findings regarding planets, moons, etc.  I can set up a telescope and check myself.  In this latter case, I have done so a few times, and it is quite something to actually test and prove yourself that yes, what you read in a book is indeed true and matches your own observations.

So no, no, no, no, no... Science is not a belief just like religion.  TBH Science is the opposite of religion and that, in large part, is the root of a lot of the friction between the two.

Religion is about belief without evidence, science more accurately can be said to be about disbelief without evidence. 

SCIENCE IS A BELIEF

It is not the same belief than religion because religion is a blind belief while science is "tested" belief.
In clear, Religion is all about belief in something without doubting, without asking yourself "where does it come from ? why ?". Religion is basically all about having faith in.
While in Science, you basically doubt about EVERYTHING, all the time. It is only when something has been proven/tested that you can come and say "it is true !" (your gravity example for example).
To me, it is not about "disbelief without evidence" but more "belief with evidence". 
Of course, Science is not about faith ...

There is also just some very little shit in Science/Research :
- experimental error : whatever the level, you can have something wrong in the raw datas (because of the sample or the material used)
- interpretation error : scientist making a wrong interpretation
This means that what is true is often wrong ... suggesting you "only" belief it is true because it seems, right now, at this time, in these condition, "true"

Also, one of the major flaw of science is that, for most of us, it escapes from our understanding and so we are completely unable to prove/test it by ourself. This means we are, again, believing in what is said to be "true" wether it is true or not. I may know that electricity is produced by an electron movement ... I basically completely unable to prove it, neither propose an experiment to prove it. I m like 99.99% of the populaition : I belief what scientifc book/master says ... like in a religion.
To take another example : a computer is basically a pure black box for most of us. Fews people will be able to explain, and fully understand (at 100%) how it functions.

You know, I still agree with you for most of your points. I just consider that, at the end, Science is still about "belief". You may not blindly believe to old text or to religious guy like in religion BUT you will still believe in the scientific community that may be wrong, may publish shit, are just human with subjectif judgement AND is dealing with so complex stuff that the average guy is barely able to get what is happening.
You just belief in "human research/progress/knowledge" in a way.

At the end, when all is said : it is still about "belief or not"


No, it's not a belief.  What you are talking about is people who don't understand things having no choice but to see it as a belief.  I understand that, and sympathise, but that itself doesn't make science a belief - that simply says some people have no choice, due to their own abilities, but to take it as a belief.

Again, the whole notion of error is why science isn't a belief.  Errors will always be outed in the end by repeated evidence.  The whole notion of science is to remove, over time, any bias or influence by the scientist, who is also a human being with all that brings.

Also, no believing in science is irrelevant.  You can chose not to believe in gravity but that won't affect the outcome if you step of a cliff.  No, you're talking about how lack of knowledge can result in belief, which isn't the same thing.  That's the fault of the individual's lack of knwoledge, no science.

I completely agree with that.

My problem is that, as a doctor in Biology, it is so amazing to see how people are limited in their comprehension/understanding of the world. It is particularly true at very high "skill" level because you usually have to limit yourself (to focus) on your own subject. So basically, you understand things to a certain degree, and, to another degree, part of things remain a black box because it is out of your comprehension field.

I can see Science like you  (let's try a sort of definition) : a concept that is based on the different datas/theories/experiments performed by humans thought history and that, because it is based on "disbelief what is not proven", will tend to become "true/proven" over the time or rejected.

But, in daily and invidualy basis ?
Your science definition looks utopic to me.
There are so so so much things that escape from our understanding as individu that we have to rely on others persons whatever it is a teacher/professor/book/physiciens etc ... meaning that, on daily and indivualy basis we have to believe ...

Ah, okay.  Well yes, I get that angle.  Indeed, the basic concept of belief in terms of being able to make decisions is vital - i.e. I believe it is okay to drink clean water, or eat that vegetable.  I think in this thread though the focus was more on belief in the religous sense - i.e. convictions without any evidence at all simply faith.  That was how I came to the discussion.  But I see you are coming at it from in terms of having to believe certain things just to get on with life.

I guess a very common one if believing a plane will fly.  Whenever I fly I do always find myself wondering how many passangers know exactly how it is possible for the plane to fly and how many simply accept it does without really knowing why.

But I think that's very different from the topic of religious belief.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

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Scoobes said:
trestres said:

That would be a sad way of seeing life. Luckily I'm not seeing it that way.

BTW I don't follow any religion if that's what you are calling "spiritual junk". I do believe in a being that trascends all physical definitions, but I'm not following any strict rules like the Church imposes.

To be honest I think that way of looking at life (as in the atheist view of when you die, that's it!) actually makes you cherish life more. This is your one shot to make a difference to humanity and enjoy your existence and consciousness. Don't waste it!

I agree (although I personally don't believe in anything really, taking the wait and see approach) and I'd like to add that your purpuse of living is what you make it to be. You decide what it is. You don't need some sort of religion, spirituality or god-esse-s to have a purpuse.



I identify myself with some of the responses, in particular Reasonable's. To be brief, I thoroughly believe that God is nothing more than a concept manifested by the human mind. Wheather it’s real or not is yet to be seen. I prefer to look at is as all living organisms being a part of a supernatural body we call God much like the cells of our own body.



Well there are really two main viewpoints.

One is we were created by something with an intellectual process, or that we were just a random occurrence of physics.

The word God only applies to the first one. The first one can be explained a million ways to create a million different types of Gods, but God does not apply to the later.

To try and map "God" into the second category, it to manipulate the English language into something "clever".

There is/was a God, or there wasn't. You can change the word "God" to mean "God and not God" if you want to, but that does not change reality.



This is a ridiculous question to ask. It's obvious to any human being that an infinite amount of possibilities cannot be disproven. However, the single prevailing belief about what God is can be disproven. Saying that atheism has no logical grounds because an infinite number of hypotheses cannot be disproven is getting away from the point.



I survived the Apocalyps3

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Scoobes said:
trestres said:

 

To be honest I think that way of looking at life (as in the atheist view of when you die, that's it!) actually makes you cherish life more. This is your one shot to make a difference to humanity and enjoy your existence and consciousness. Don't waste it!

I'm not necessarily saying this directly to you, but I want to point out that it's illogical to generalize belief. No matter how much people will say that they are a part of a belief system or a school of thought, there is never complete uniformity. Just because one Christian is a racist doesn't mean they all are. And with atheists, there is far less uniformity. Just because all atheists disregard the existence of a God as defined by religious texts/preachers, doesn't mean any of their other beliefs are uniform. Pretty much the only thing that unites atheists is that they believe there is no God. Beyond that, an atheist can be a fatalist, solipsist, nihilist, humanist etc. all the way to the moon.



I survived the Apocalyps3

mysticwolf said:

I just think the idea of God is unrational. There's no logic. There's no physical evidence of God.

There is evidence to support that life started long ago with volcanic eruptions underwater. The volcanoes released chemicals, and these certain chemicals reacted with elements on the surface of the earth, and the right conditions were made for bacteria to be created.

Here's an article:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/October/26100603.asp


Most theologians are going to argue there is physical evidence for God. The best examples are inferring the existence of God from the rationality and orderliness of the universe. The main idea is that they look at some aspect of the universe and find God to be the best explanation for that characteristic. I think you might mean that God cannot be observed because God is generally described as non-physical. In this sense, there cannot be any direct physical evidence for God. Its always going to be inferential physical evidence.

As some other users mentioned though, this is not really a good route to take because there are many things of which we do not have direct physical evidence. Scientific laws are one example. You cannot point out the law of graivty, and say "there it is". The best we can do is infer the law of gravity from observation.



GameOver22 said:
mysticwolf said:

I just think the idea of God is unrational. There's no logic. There's no physical evidence of God.

There is evidence to support that life started long ago with volcanic eruptions underwater. The volcanoes released chemicals, and these certain chemicals reacted with elements on the surface of the earth, and the right conditions were made for bacteria to be created.

Here's an article:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/October/26100603.asp


Most theologians are going to argue there is physical evidence for God. The best examples are inferring the existence of God from the rationality and orderliness of the universe. The main idea is that they look at some aspect of the universe and find God to be the best explanation for that characteristic. I think you might mean that God cannot be observed because God is generally described as non-physical. In this sense, there cannot be any direct physical evidence for God. Its always going to be inferential physical evidence.

As some other users mentioned though, this is not really a good route to take because there are many things of which we do not have direct physical evidence. Scientific laws are one example. You cannot point out the law of graivty, and say "there it is". The best we can do is infer the law of gravity from observation.

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.



Rath said:
GameOver22 said:
mysticwolf said:

I just think the idea of God is unrational. There's no logic. There's no physical evidence of God.

There is evidence to support that life started long ago with volcanic eruptions underwater. The volcanoes released chemicals, and these certain chemicals reacted with elements on the surface of the earth, and the right conditions were made for bacteria to be created.

Here's an article:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/October/26100603.asp


Most theologians are going to argue there is physical evidence for God. The best examples are inferring the existence of God from the rationality and orderliness of the universe. The main idea is that they look at some aspect of the universe and find God to be the best explanation for that characteristic. I think you might mean that God cannot be observed because God is generally described as non-physical. In this sense, there cannot be any direct physical evidence for God. Its always going to be inferential physical evidence.

As some other users mentioned though, this is not really a good route to take because there are many things of which we do not have direct physical evidence. Scientific laws are one example. You cannot point out the law of graivty, and say "there it is". The best we can do is infer the law of gravity from observation.

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.


I agree that God cannot be quantified, but the orderliness and rationality of the universe can be quantified. In the same way, the law of gravity cannot be quantified because it is non-physical. However, the observations that allow us to infer gravity can be quantified. My main point is that it is asking for the impossible if you want to quantify or measure something non-physical because these things have no physical existence. I think the confusion is that I am talking about gravity as a concept while you are talking about gravity as a force. 



GameOver22 said:
Rath said:

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.


I agree that God cannot be quantified, but the orderliness and rationality of the universe can be quantified. In the same way, the law of gravity cannot be quantified because it is non-physical. However, the observations that allow us to infer gravity can be quantified. My main point is that it is asking for the impossible if you want to quantify or measure something non-physical because these things have no physical existence. I think the confusion is that I am talking about gravity as a concept while you are talking about gravity as a force. 


I am confused. Gravity as a concept is merely an explanation of gravity as a force, its effects have been explored and are described by a series of equations. There are currently attempts to explain its origin in quantum theory that look likely to be succesful in the near future. You speak of measuring the non-physical but you use gravity in your analogy which without a doubt is something physical.

It is nothing at all like looking at the universe and saying 'God did it, because its orderly' which does not have any actual measurement or explanation behind it.

I really really am confused.