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reidlosdog said:

In America,(1) everybody has a chance, it is up to them whether or not they will take it. Also, if you really were about equality, (2) you would be for a fair tax where everybody is taxed the same amount. You wouldn't be for the government stealing money from the rich to give to the poor (Or paying for votes with other people's money, or my personal favorite, (3)forcing everybody to be charitable) No, you would be for churches and non profits taking donations from the rich (who would inevitably donate more if they had more to give) and would be for the government staying out of our way and letting the natural system of capitalism work. /rant

(4)You may, but most of that upper bracket will re-invest in their business and as a result will grow jobs.

(5)So your idea of a functioning society is 11% unemployment (last time I checked , and that's not counting those who have part time jobs but are looking for full time, those who have stopped being eligeable for unemployment, and those who have given up looking for work, which also brought the total up to somewhere around 20%).

(6)I believe that allowing the capitalist system to work with minimal governmental interferance is the key to having a functional society.

1.  Everybody does have a chance.  It's only called chance.  Many of the rich in today's economy did not work for it, it was handed down to them from their parents, grand parents, and so on and so forth.  That’s not saying that no one has gone from rags to riches, but those stories are few and far in between.

We have the right to a chance at success, not a guarantee to it. Contrary to what you believe, many of the rich in todays economy have worked hard, and likely failed once or twice along the way. A small segment of the rich have indeed inherited money, but for the most part, they are liberals. 

2.  Sorry, but if everyone was charged the same amount, no one would be able to pay for anything.  What were our taxes in the 1950's?  Those were one of our best times ever.  1990's?  Again, one of our best times ever.  The 50's had a ‘ Â income tax on the richest people in the U.S., and you know what happened?  We flourished.  Today?  we tax our rich 5.  We have THEM run THEM selves.  We don't watch them.  Of course we put little tickets here and there if the mess up, but still, they are self functioning.  Have you ever heard of the main reason why we are in this mess? 

And this is exactly why taxes need to be lowered, why is it fair to charge people different amounts? Lower taxes and free up capital for the market to invest in. The 1990s were a huge success due to the dot com bubble, a bunch of capitalists taking a chance, not because of higher taxes. We over tax the rich, over regulate them instead of letting people vote with their dollars, and as a result, the rich stop investing, they stop working (because let's face it, they can afford to) and this leads to less jobs, less jobs means there is less money going to the middle and lower class, a poorer lower class spends less, this means less money is brought in by the rich, they in turn can't afford to invest in more jobs, and the cycle continues. Like I said, lower taxes increase wealth. The private sector is MUCH better than handling money than the government.

FYI the main reason we are in this mess is because President Clinton, in all his wisdom, signed a bill forcing banks to give loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them. And guess what President Obama did, He signed a bill that increases the quotas the banks must meet.  

Republicans probably will trace it back to when President Clinton signed a bill forcing lending companies to allow the poor to live in a home.  What the Bill did not cover was what happened between 2000-2009, literally, that is when this whole thing started and ended (9 years it took).  What happened was that lending companies were given these rules, but they were to follow their own when it came to picking who get's what and how much it will cost them.  The committee to watch over these lending organizations?  Non-governmental private groups.  Now, private lenders had the ability to force these non-governmental private groups into doing what they needed them to do, making certain investments possible.  Don’t believe me?  Look up a non-partisan source.

lol, Where are you getting this?  You do realize President clinton signed another bill in 1999 right? It expired in 2009, and was promptly reenacted (and then some) by the current President. Now, I don't know if you know anything about quotas, but banks were told they needed to make a certain number of loans a year to minorities, and low income people. If these quotas were not met, they could be fined, and/or lose their FDIC insurance. That is not to say banks did not do some sleezy stuff. My best friend lost his house because the bank who held his lone had documents that said there was a 5 year interest only loan on the house, after five years the payments went up (I forget what that type of loan is called) And my friend's documents all said it was a 30 year fixed. They couldn't go after the bank because it was dissolved in the banking meltdown. One of their friends had the same thing happen with a Wells Fargo loan, they came away with a nice settlement.

Which brings me to the current conclusion of that history lesson, we, the poor, were allowed to take 200,000-400,000 dollar loans in order to pay for our houses.  But with an income of only 20,000 a year, maybe 30,000 if lucky, this was all possible.  Remember, the government willingly said it was ok to NOT watch these businesses.  So the bubble began to become bigger and bigger.

Indeed, if the government had stayed out of it, less houses would have been sold, as a result, less houses would have been built, and house prices would be more reasonable. Every time the Governement gets involved in anything, it becomes a huge mess.

3.  If everyone was charitable, this would be an awesome world.  But no one is.  Do you know what amount of charity it would take to end world poverty?   From High income countries only, they would need to basically donate 3-4 percent of their income.  Do you know what the U.S. donates?  .10 percent.  that is just from government aid.  When you look at actual charities, whoa doggy, you got to watch out.  With the government AND charities combine, the U.S. donates .14 of our income to end poverty.  So... I would gladly steal from the mouths of decadence.

No one is because they cannot afford to be. Tax people less,  axport more goods,

You look at yourself and go, "God, my money is being taken to be given to the poor" but the poor need it more than you do.

So? Let ME choose who to give it to. It's my money, I can give it to a charity of my choice, a charity that won't waste my money paying off public officials and putting it into programs that only encourage people to stay where they are in life. FYI I make just under $40,000.00 a year right now, and let me tell you, it was much easier taking care of my family when I was only making $29,000. There is something horribly wrong with that.

4.  Do you have ANY proof of the mass majority of the rich investing back into the U.S.?  They won't invest in us for manufacturing, because they do so in China.  They won't invest in us for education, because of schools systems are underfunded so the dropout rate in High School and Higher education is at a high.  We look left and right for some solace, some place to invest, and you know where we need it?  In our education.  We will never be the producing country we once world, but our people should be the smartest.  Now we are below the top ten most educated countries in the world.  Why?  because our people don't want to pay for education when it's put in the form of taxes, and then when you show the middle class and the poor how much private schooling costs, that isn't much of a answer either.

Exactly, the invest in other countries because of TAXES. They are not taxed as much in other countries, why invest here when you can do it cheaper elsewhere? Lower taxes on business and watch them come back to the US. US schools are underfunded??? Are you serious? whith the average tuition of around $12,000 per pupal/ year, I do not think they are under funded, they do underperform though, just like every other governmental venture. Why is it private schools can do a much better job at aducating children at a much lower price? If you really want to invest in education, try a tax incentive for people to take their children to private schools. It doesn't seem right to me that I should have to pay twice, for schooling one child, if I choose to put them into a private school.

The rich do not invest in this country, and have not for the past twenty years.  Because what they need to invest in is education, because it is our only way to stay at the top.

As I said, taxes are too high on almost every front, and education as it is right now is a complete joke. I know I didn't learn a damn thing in highschool, I already knew it all from when I was homeschooled up to 9th grade.

5.  We would have a %9 national unemployment rate regardless of who was in power.  And ya, we have a %9 unemployment rate.  Now, I live in Vegas, so it isn’t hard to understand unemployment.  We have the highest in the country.  It isn’t hard to understand foreclosure rates either.  But no one who has done their home work looks at Harry Reid and says, "you lost my house, you lowered my taxes, you lost my job," only those who have no where left to go and must blame someone on the way to poverty.  It's how we deal with things, even though sadly it is how we vote too, with our emotions.

 

Well I actually agree with you here, President Bush didn't help things along any with his bailout, infact, he opened the door for Obama to increase it, and Mcain (who I always said was more of a democrat than Obama) most likely would have done the same, perhaps not to the same degree, but with the liberals in congress there would have been tremendous pressure to do so. And you are correct, it's not just Harry Reids fault. I actually blame a lot of the Republicans in congress for this as well.  Our couyntry is so broken right now, and to go back to a system that actualy works would mean a MAJOR overhaul which most Americans would be against because it would affect them negativeley in some way or another for a period of time. 

6.  We are called a free enterprise.  Look it up in a dictionary.  We have been a free enterprise since Alexander Hamilton.  Don't know who that is, please look him up.  He's the reason for the hated taxes, and the reason this country is sovereign.  Do you know what makes a country sovereign?  It's being able to pay off one's debts.  Whenever a country goes through a deep depression or recession, the one that can pay of its debts turns out the strongest.

This country was NEVER supposed to have a national debt with the exception of during wartime. The reason we have such a huge debt right now is because of the SPENDING. we are spending too much on programs that don't work, and programs that would be better left to the private sector. Cut the spending, cut the taxes. Although at this point we are so far in debt that even slashing debt and cutting taxes would take decades to bring us back in the black.

 

 

Icyedge said:

Between, I live in Canada, we pay more taxes than in the states and we have less society problems. When we impose a way of living, we also need to support those who have trouble fitting in, either its mentaly or physically. If you dont, its a vicious circle. People will find other way to survive. By offering program, like reduce educational cost, free healthcare, sufficient income in case of employment lost ect. the same individuals can have the tools to sort their issues and add to the society again and more. Society with big disparity between riches and poor, decline sooner than later. Just look at history. Dont get me wrong, I like money, and im not saying we should be communist. But you need a balance if you want a functioning society.

How is it ok for the government to steal your money and choose who to give it to, shouldn't that be your choice? From what I hear from other canadians who are quite in tune with the politics up there, it's not as rosy as you try to make it. Your society is just struggling along, sure it functions, but it could do so much better if you would just let it. Socialism does not work, it rewards the poor and punishes the rich. Who then, would want to work to become rich? The disparigase you speak of were, in every example I could think of, the direct result of government overstepping it's natural bounds and creating an unballance in the capitalist equalibrium.

 

 



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ironman said:

 

Icyedge said:

Between, I live in Canada, we pay more taxes than in the states and we have less society problems. When we impose a way of living, we also need to support those who have trouble fitting in, either its mentaly or physically. If you dont, its a vicious circle. People will find other way to survive. By offering program, like reduce educational cost, free healthcare, sufficient income in case of employment lost ect. the same individuals can have the tools to sort their issues and add to the society again and more. Society with big disparity between riches and poor, decline sooner than later. Just look at history. Dont get me wrong, I like money, and im not saying we should be communist. But you need a balance if you want a functioning society.

How is it ok for the government to steal your money and choose who to give it to, shouldn't that be your choice? From what I hear from other canadians who are quite in tune with the politics up there, it's not as rosy as you try to make it. Your society is just struggling along, sure it functions, but it could do so much better if you would just let it. Socialism does not work, it rewards the poor and punishes the rich. Who then, would want to work to become rich? The disparigase you speak of were, in every example I could think of, the direct result of government overstepping it's natural bounds and creating an unballance in the capitalist equalibrium.

 

 


Im sorry but you lack some understanding of how it works. You can still be rich, its just that depending of the income brackets your in, you pay different taxes percentage (its higher in Canada because we have more public services). Im in the upper tier myself and I dont mind, its a very good thing, and anyway im still keeping most of my pay. Im not saying Canada is the perfect society, just that it has less society problems than the states. Between, you understand that even in the states you pay taxes right? And that with recent reform like healthcare your going to pay more taxes right?

You also seem to forget the advantages that comes from supporting public services through taxes. As example, reduce educational cost. Colleges and university becomes more accessible, and then you have more educated people who can contribute back to the society. Other example healthcare, if you have a disease and cannot pay to afford the service, gods knows what youll do in order to survive.

Finally, what is funny with:"From what I hear from other canadians who are quite in tune with the politics up there, it's not as rosy as you try to make it." Is that the current Canadian government is a bit more right than many people would like it to be... Anyway, as I already said, its not perfect here either.



Libertarian all the way!

AND the Xbox360 is fucking awesome!!

No new taxes!! More personal freedoms!!  Corporations are not inherintly bad, they're capitalism at it's finest!!

Penn & Teller: Bullshit rules!!

 

 

 

 

Xbox!



Interestingly, they are both in a minority on this site.



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That woudl actually make sense. Repbulicans are known to love guns and shooting. Which consoles has the most shooters? Thought so.



updated: 14.01.2012

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Hype-o-meter, from least to most hyped:  the Last Story, Twisted Metal, Mass Effect 3, Final Fantasy XIII-2, Final Fantasy Versus XIII, Playstation ViTA

bet with Mordred11 that Rage will look better on Xbox 360.

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Said like a champ reidlosdog. If you can afford to pay, you should. I would.