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Forums - General - Is "teabonics" fake?

Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
A. I do think so... keep in mind this whole thing started because Obama's Kenyan aunt stated she was there when he was born... and then only later recanted.  (Possibly after being told what a silly law the US has when it comes to electing presidents?)  It's not like the swiftboats where the original source was some anti-kerry groups.  This whole thing started due to a family relative saying she was there then changing her story. (Because she wasn't in the US at that time.)

B.  Arizona and New Mexco I'd think would be counted as south.  Maybe not, can't really say.  I'd of liked to of seen a state by state breakdown myself.   Knowing Daily Kos they might of just pulled NY as the West, Illnois as North, California as west and... well there would be no easy slamdunk in the south.  Daily Kos... I only really used because it's higher then you'd expect based on their general bias and placements in poll tracking.

As for California... they don't "care" about immigartion issues really... they go out of there way to be helpeful towards immigrats both illegal and legal.

A.  evidence plz.  I spent a few minutes on Google and only found some nutjob making that claim about the grandmother in the same breath as he called the birth certificate  (yes yes short form) a forgery: 
"But Philip J. Berg, a former deputy attorney general for Pennsylvania, told the Michael Savage talk radio program tonight that the document is forged and that he has a tape recording he will soon release.
"This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months," Berg told Savage. "I'll release it [the tape] in a day or two, affidavits from her talking to a certain person. I heard the tape. She was speaking [to someone] here in the United States."
"He said the telephone call was from Obama's paternal grandmother affirming she "was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born Aug. 4, 1961."

If this tape exists, you should be able to show it to me no problem right?  And convince so many people?  The burden is obviously on you

B.  I'm curious now ... is this just your gut feeling on where you think they ought to go, or is it based on something you can point to?  I've never considered them South -- Southwest, sure, but never South.  Wikipedia has a list of ways people (mainly the US gov't) divides up the country; most of them have NM in West-like region(s) and NONE of them have Arizona in a South-like region.  The regional divisions I would have expected Daily Kos to use are the Census Bureau ones, since there are 4 main regions in that one, and Kos has 4 in its breakdown.  Which has NM in the West. 

And surely you meant to suggest New York as NE and Illinois as MW?  The way you said it, Kos polled 2 types of West (NY and CA lol), polled a "North" region they didn't report, and completely made up their Northeast and Midwest numbers.  

Personally I've thought of the South as more or less the old Confederacy, which is less extensive than the South region in the Census bureau.  (Kentucky, W. Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware being the additions.) 

Regarding California, that may be their attitude about immigration issues, but they still have them. 

A)  http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2008/12/05/birth_certificate
Though they do explain it away trying to say it's a mistranslation... saying yes to "I was present where he was born" certaintly doesn't sound  like anything you could mistranslate.  She might of been confused.  Afterall she'd have to be pretty old... however either being confused or accidently letting the truth come out and having to be corrected are both way more likely.

Guess it was after this whole thing started though.  Anyone who believed it before then... i'm sketchy on.  Still.  Proof is important.

B) Oh they still have issues, it's one of the reasons they do so poorly economically, but when you have a negative attitude towards it, it's pretty hard to say you'd be effected by it since they don't see it as an issue to them.

It's just a guess to me though.  I'd think you'd want to call the confederacy the "South east".

Though yeah, what I mean is... i'd be surprised if Daily Kos didn't go out of their way to try and make the numbers lower.

A.  Well, I tried to listen to the audio but apparently my computer doesn't want to play audio right now.  But I'm glad that happened because it caused me to track down this amazing document (from here) which spells it all out.  It's a read at once edifying and entertaining, but if all you want is the transcript you can skip to page 12 -- or for the real key portion, page 17.  (I was going to paste a lot of it in but it turned out to be pretty huge so I'll do that in a separate post.)

I think you'll agree there was a lot of confusion going on in general, and the translation was not flawless either.  What seems to have happened is that she thought she was saying "yes I was present here in Kenya when he was born (in Hawaii)" instead of "yes I was present here in Kenya when he was born (here in Kenya)"

Keep in mind that at this point one of the translators was asking, "He is asking her that, uh, he wants to know something that uh, was uh you, was they, was she present when, ah, he was born. Were they they there then?"

B.  I don't consider Texas the Southeast.  Or Louisiana really, although if I had to pick SE or SW that's where I'd draw the line.  [edit:  with LA SE.  Probably.] 



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MCRAE: Uh, could I ask her, uh, could I ask her about his, uh, his, his, his actual birthplace. I would like to see his birthplace when I, when I come to Kenya in December. Uh, was she, was she, was she present when he was--
VOICE (in background): It is here
MCRAE: Was she present when he was born in Kenya?
BROTHER TOM: I think, uh, uh I think--
VOICE (in background): (unintelligible)
BROTHER TOM (in background): He is asking her that, uh, he wants to know something that uh, was uh you, was they, was she present when, ah, he was born. Were they they there then?
(Male voice in foreign language in background.)
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yes, they say that yes she was. She was present when Obama was born.
(McRae catches breath)
MCRAE: OK. 
[This is where the lawsuit affadavit cuts off.]
[McRae, cont.]
Uh, when I come in December I would like to go by the, the place, the hospital where he is born. Uh, could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?
(Long pause. Puzzled sound from Translator Ogombe in background: "naah?")
BROTHER TOM: Uh, uh, I, I will need help. I think, uh I think, I kind of, you know we'll be coming December (unintelligible) and Vitalis, and I talking to him, so I tell him--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (in background, simultaneously): --no, no-- what?!?
BROTHER TOM: --that you are a capitalist, that you were a little, that you were a little, a little, a little American bus--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (responding to background voices, sounding distressed): No--yes--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (to McRae): No! Obama was not born in Mombasa! He was born in America!
MCRAE: Wh-whereabouts, whereabouts was he born? I, I thought he was born in Kenya.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: No he was born in America, not in Mombasa.
MCRAE: OK. Do you know whereabouts he was born?
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: (Pause.) Huh?
MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was gonna go by and see where he was born.
(two male voices in background in foreign language speaking at the same time. Mrs. Obama or another woman in background.)
VOICE (background): It was Hawaii.
VOICE OF MRS. OBAMA OR ANOTHER WOMAN (background): Hawaii.
BROTHER TOM (background): Hawaii, yeah?
VOICE OF MRS. OBAMA OR ANOTHER WOMAN (background): Yeah.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (background): Yes.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (to McRae): Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yeah, in 1960 this was Hawaii, where his father, his father was also marrying there. This was Hawaii.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yeah.
MCRAE: Was, was, was Mrs. Obama, was sh--was she present? Was, was Mrs. Obama, see I thought you said she was present. Was she, was, was she, was she able to see him being, being born in, in Hawaii?
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: (pause, silence) Hoh? (pause) Uh, yeah would you please pronounce?
MCRAE: OK I’m sorry. I, I thought she said she was present when he was born. I was—
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (sounding exasperated): No, no! The, the woman was not present. She was uh not, a what--you see, she was here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America. That is, that’s obvious.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Because, because the grandmother was married here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America, oh yeah, so his son, the little Obama, was marrying, was marrying, in America, in United States.
MCRAE: Oh, OK, fine. I mean, I--I just, I misunderstood what she was saying. I thought you said she was present when he was born.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: No, not present there. The present with me here was tonight. Not present so she can leave. No she was here in Kenya while he, uh, her son, the little Obama, was marrying in America. And, uh, he be present if it--
WOMAN'S VOICE (background): It was in Hawaii.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: --was in America there, why are they for, they go, they go, they go to some place, then the present isn't here sir, he was born there in America.



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It sounds to me a lot more like "what, how did you get that idea??" rather than "oh shit we spilled the beans!!"



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Final-Fan said:

MCRAE: Uh, could I ask her, uh, could I ask her about his, uh, his, his, his actual birthplace. I would like to see his birthplace when I, when I come to Kenya in December. Uh, was she, was she, was she present when he was--
VOICE (in background): It is here
MCRAE: Was she present when he was born in Kenya?
BROTHER TOM: I think, uh, uh I think--
VOICE (in background): (unintelligible)
BROTHER TOM (in background): He is asking her that, uh, he wants to know something that uh, was uh you, was they, was she present when, ah, he was born. Were they they there then?
(Male voice in foreign language in background.)
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yes, they say that yes she was. She was present when Obama was born.
(McRae catches breath)
MCRAE: OK. 
[This is where the lawsuit affadavit cuts off.]
[McRae, cont.]
Uh, when I come in December I would like to go by the, the place, the hospital where he is born. Uh, could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?
(Long pause. Puzzled sound from Translator Ogombe in background: "naah?")
BROTHER TOM: Uh, uh, I, I will need help. I think, uh I think, I kind of, you know we'll be coming December (unintelligible) and Vitalis, and I talking to him, so I tell him--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (in background, simultaneously): --no, no-- what?!?
BROTHER TOM: --that you are a capitalist, that you were a little, that you were a little, a little, a little American bus--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (responding to background voices, sounding distressed): No--yes--
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (to McRae): No! Obama was not born in Mombasa! He was born in America!
MCRAE: Wh-whereabouts, whereabouts was he born? I, I thought he was born in Kenya.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: No he was born in America, not in Mombasa.
MCRAE: OK. Do you know whereabouts he was born?
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: (Pause.) Huh?
MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was gonna go by and see where he was born.
(two male voices in background in foreign language speaking at the same time. Mrs. Obama or another woman in background.)
VOICE (background): It was Hawaii.
VOICE OF MRS. OBAMA OR ANOTHER WOMAN (background): Hawaii.
BROTHER TOM (background): Hawaii, yeah?
VOICE OF MRS. OBAMA OR ANOTHER WOMAN (background): Yeah.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (background): Yes.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (to McRae): Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yeah, in 1960 this was Hawaii, where his father, his father was also marrying there. This was Hawaii.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Yeah.
MCRAE: Was, was, was Mrs. Obama, was sh--was she present? Was, was Mrs. Obama, see I thought you said she was present. Was she, was, was she, was she able to see him being, being born in, in Hawaii?
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: (pause, silence) Hoh? (pause) Uh, yeah would you please pronounce?
MCRAE: OK I’m sorry. I, I thought she said she was present when he was born. I was—
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE (sounding exasperated): No, no! The, the woman was not present. She was uh not, a what--you see, she was here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America. That is, that’s obvious.
MCRAE: OK.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: Because, because the grandmother was married here in Kenya, and Obama was born in America, oh yeah, so his son, the little Obama, was marrying, was marrying, in America, in United States.
MCRAE: Oh, OK, fine. I mean, I--I just, I misunderstood what she was saying. I thought you said she was present when he was born.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: No, not present there. The present with me here was tonight. Not present so she can leave. No she was here in Kenya while he, uh, her son, the little Obama, was marrying in America. And, uh, he be present if it--
WOMAN'S VOICE (background): It was in Hawaii.
TRANSLATOR OGOMBE: --was in America there, why are they for, they go, they go, they go to some place, then the present isn't here sir, he was born there in America.


1)  Actually what I linked too was the full audio. There was no reason to link to the trasnscript.  McRae released the entire thing before any lawsuit had the info.  He wasn't hiding anything or anything.

That does seem like an "odd" mistranslation still to say the least.  "Were you in Kenya when he was born?"  What kind of question is that?  It's by far more then enough info to be reasonable doubt and compel someone to go through AT LEAST lengths that will prove their innocence that will take all of a few minutes.  No matter what you believe the real reasoning behind her saying that was. 

Showing the back of a baseball card should be no big deal as long as it's the real year... and I find it ridiculious to fully believe someone who refuses to show the back of the card, nomatter how unepected and unlikely said charges may be.  There have been waaaaay to many unlikely things like that likely hidden from the US Public.

 

Heck it's probably why Obama is the first black president instead of the second, third or fourth. (As high as sixth if you believe all the stories).



It's more like he was showed the back of the card and said "I want to see the receipt", and the guy was like "I've got it in my house but I don't feel like digging it out just for you". 

And I know that's the full audio -- sorry for the confusion -- the lawsuit had a transcript that cut off like a third of the way into the audio.  And having it all there in front of us helps immensely IMO, instead of having to listen to it over and over again if we want to check anything. 

And no, reasonable doubt vs. proof goes the other way around, thank you very much.  I don't even think it's reasonable doubt when the supposed admission was corrected immediately and there is no other evidence whatsoever that the mother was in Kenya ever in her life up till then and years after if ever. 

"No, not present there. The present with me here was tonight. Not present so she can leave. No she was here in Kenya while he, uh, her son, the little Obama, was marrying in America. And, uh, he be present if it was in America there, why are they for, they go, they go, they go to some place, then the present isn't here sir, he was born there in America.
This is admittedly a very strange way to put it, and in fact I'm not entirely sure he even said what he intended to say, but it does seem to me that this man genuinely had an idea in his head that made sense to him even if it caused confusion to McRae and us.  Can an explanation this bizarre really be a clever lie? 

P.S.  The Hawaiian birth certificate which we agree is not forged is all the legal proof he needs as far as the presidency is concerned anyway, and as far as drawing conclusions about the actual reality, I think this does not come close to establishing a serious case for them being in Kenya at that time. 



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Final-Fan said:

It's more like he was showed the back of the card and said "I want to see the receipt", and the guy was like "I've got it in my house but I don't feel like digging it out just for you". 

And I know that's the full audio -- sorry for the confusion -- the lawsuit had a transcript that cut off like a third of the way into the audio.  And having it all there in front of us helps immensely IMO, instead of having to listen to it over and over again if we want to check anything. 

And no, reasonable doubt vs. proof goes the other way around, thank you very much.  I don't even think it's reasonable doubt when the supposed admission was corrected immediately and there is no other evidence whatsoever that the mother was in Kenya ever in her life up till then and years after if ever. 

"No, not present there. The present with me here was tonight. Not present so she can leave. No she was here in Kenya while he, uh, her son, the little Obama, was marrying in America. And, uh, he be present if it was in America there, why are they for, they go, they go, they go to some place, then the present isn't here sir, he was born there in America.
This is admittedly a very strange way to put it, and in fact I'm not entirely sure he even said what he intended to say, but it does seem to me that this man genuinely had an idea in his head that made sense to him even if it caused confusion to McRae and us.  Can an explanation this bizarre really be a clever lie? 

P.S.  The Hawaiian birth certificate which we agree is not forged is all the legal proof he needs as far as the presidency is concerned anyway, and as far as drawing conclusions about the actual reality, I think this does not come close to establishing a serious case for them being in Kenya at that time. 

I... just couldn't disagree more.

First off, reasonable doubt vs proof DOESN'T go the other way.

We aren't in a court.   Reasonable doubt goes BOTH ways outside of a courtroom.  Or at least it should.

Reasonable dount is simply that... reasonable doubt.  Said circumstances makes dount reasonable, and non-doubt unreasonable.

 

As for "can the explination be a clever lie?"

Well, yeah, it could be... or a dumb lie that was so dumb it was considered a lie, or it could be in fact that the guy did just misphrase it.

Either way, it's unreasonable to assume any of those without full disclosure of the facts... which we don't have.



Non-doubt is not in this case unreasonable. 



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Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
A. I do think so... keep in mind this whole thing started because Obama's Kenyan aunt stated she was there when he was born... and then only later recanted.  (Possibly after being told what a silly law the US has when it comes to electing presidents?)  It's not like the swiftboats where the original source was some anti-kerry groups.  This whole thing started due to a family relative saying she was there then changing her story. (Because she wasn't in the US at that time.)

A.  evidence plz.  I spent a few minutes on Google and only found some nutjob making that claim about the grandmother in the same breath as he called the birth certificate  (yes yes short form) a forgery: 
"But Philip J. Berg, a former deputy attorney general for Pennsylvania, told the Michael Savage talk radio program tonight that the document is forged and that he has a tape recording he will soon release.
"This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months," Berg told Savage. "I'll release it [the tape] in a day or two, affidavits from her talking to a certain person. I heard the tape. She was speaking [to someone] here in the United States."
"He said the telephone call was from Obama's paternal grandmother affirming she "was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born Aug. 4, 1961."

If this tape exists, you should be able to show it to me no problem right?  And convince so many people?  The burden is obviously on you

A)  http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2008/12/05/birth_certificate
Though they do explain it away trying to say it's a mistranslation... saying yes to "I was present where he was born" certaintly doesn't sound  like anything you could mistranslate.  She might of been confused.  Afterall she'd have to be pretty old... however either being confused or accidently letting the truth come out and having to be corrected are both way more likely.

Guess it was after this whole thing started though.  Anyone who believed it before then... i'm sketchy on.  Still.  Proof is important.

Oh yeah, one thing I didn't think of until now ... one of the two translators was an agent for the birther people.  If what she said was an admission that they only covered up by claiming a translation error, wouldn't he have raised a red flag?  I mean, is it reasonable to think someone on McRae's payroll to dig up dirt on the birth in Kenya would have assisted in covering up an admission to McRae in his presence about that same birth? 



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"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:

Non-doubt is not in this case unreasonable. 


I... couldn't disagree more, because of the totally obvious and no effort steps that could be taken to stop any doubt.



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
A. I do think so... keep in mind this whole thing started because Obama's Kenyan aunt stated she was there when he was born... and then only later recanted.  (Possibly after being told what a silly law the US has when it comes to electing presidents?)  It's not like the swiftboats where the original source was some anti-kerry groups.  This whole thing started due to a family relative saying she was there then changing her story. (Because she wasn't in the US at that time.)

A.  evidence plz.  I spent a few minutes on Google and only found some nutjob making that claim about the grandmother in the same breath as he called the birth certificate  (yes yes short form) a forgery: 
"But Philip J. Berg, a former deputy attorney general for Pennsylvania, told the Michael Savage talk radio program tonight that the document is forged and that he has a tape recording he will soon release.
"This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months," Berg told Savage. "I'll release it [the tape] in a day or two, affidavits from her talking to a certain person. I heard the tape. She was speaking [to someone] here in the United States."
"He said the telephone call was from Obama's paternal grandmother affirming she "was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born Aug. 4, 1961."

If this tape exists, you should be able to show it to me no problem right?  And convince so many people?  The burden is obviously on you

A)  http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2008/12/05/birth_certificate
Though they do explain it away trying to say it's a mistranslation... saying yes to "I was present where he was born" certaintly doesn't sound  like anything you could mistranslate.  She might of been confused.  Afterall she'd have to be pretty old... however either being confused or accidently letting the truth come out and having to be corrected are both way more likely.

Guess it was after this whole thing started though.  Anyone who believed it before then... i'm sketchy on.  Still.  Proof is important.

Oh yeah, one thing I didn't think of until now ... one of the two translators was an agent for the birther people.  If what she said was an admission that they only covered up by claiming a translation error, wouldn't he have raised a red flag?  I mean, is it reasonable to think someone on McRae's payroll to dig up dirt on the birth in Kenya would have assisted in covering up an admission to McRae in his presence about that same birth? 


There was only 1 translator...?