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thranx said:

You are throwing the idea out that for it to be self correcting that all religous people must believe it, religion is not that way. The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon. Science to me is not "oputside" of religion like you are making it to be. To me you are trying to say religion is not self correcting because they are not all sheep following the same thing, i am trying to say religion is self correcting. I just havent found the words to convine you of that. I am working on it.

Dude, listen to what you're saying:  The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon - - - - - - - -  You're saying that science is infused into religious beleifs thus correcting it, that's the same as saying that "science corrects religion",totally different from religion correcting religion

anyways, I don't think it's possible right now for religion to "correct itself" as the source for the information and writings is long gone and we are going to suddenly "discovered" anything new in this field

BUT one very very important thing that you seem to be forgetting is that for something to be corrected, it needs to be "not right" to begin with. if religion is indeed the "infallible word of god" than this by definition makes it impossible to correct as it is not possible for it to be wrong in the first place by definition... so if science in fact WERE to correct religion in one way or another, that religion would be deemed false, end of story

like if some religion stated long ago in its texts that the earth was flat... we now are certain that the earth is round so the discovery of the real shape of the earth would have led to the discarding of this religion - - - - - that's why science correcting religion or religion correcting itself is not in religion's favor at all. huge wall of text is huge.



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miz1q2w3e said:
thranx said:

You are throwing the idea out that for it to be self correcting that all religous people must believe it, religion is not that way. The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon. Science to me is not "oputside" of religion like you are making it to be. To me you are trying to say religion is not self correcting because they are not all sheep following the same thing, i am trying to say religion is self correcting. I just havent found the words to convine you of that. I am working on it.

Dude, listen to what you're saying:  The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon - - - - - - - -  You're saying that science is infused into religious beleifs thus correcting it, that's the same as saying that "science corrects religion",totally different from religion correcting religion

anyways, I don't think it's possible right now for religion to "correct itself" as the source for the information and writings is long gone and we are going to suddenly "discovered" anything new in this field

BUT one very very important thing that you seem to be forgetting is that for something to be corrected, it needs to be "not right" to begin with. if religion is indeed the "infallible word of god" than this by definition makes it impossible to correct as it is not possible for it to be wrong in the first place by definition... so if science in fact WERE to correct religion in one way or another, that religion would be deemed false, end of story

like if some religion stated long ago in its texts that the earth was flat... we now are certain that the earth is round so the discovery of the real shape of the earth would have led to the discarding of this religion - - - - - that's why science correcting religion or religion correcting itself is not in religion's favor at all. huge wall of text is huge.

I am saying science is a part of religion when said science is done by those who belive in said religions or religous beliefs.

I never said the bolded, and I do not know many who would. I also never said religion is infalible so Ido not see wh y you are attacking me there.



thranx said:
miz1q2w3e said:

Dude, listen to what you're saying:  The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon - - - - - - - -  You're saying that science is infused into religious beleifs thus correcting it, that's the same as saying that "science corrects religion",totally different from religion correcting religion

anyways, I don't think it's possible right now for religion to "correct itself" as the source for the information and writings is long gone and we are going to suddenly "discovered" anything new in this field

BUT one very very important thing that you seem to be forgetting is that for something to be corrected, it needs to be "not right" to begin with. if religion is indeed the "infallible word of god" than this by definition makes it impossible to correct as it is not possible for it to be wrong in the first place by definition... so if science in fact WERE to correct religion in one way or another, that religion would be deemed false, end of story

like if some religion stated long ago in its texts that the earth was flat... we now are certain that the earth is round so the discovery of the real shape of the earth would have led to the discarding of this religion - - - - - that's why science correcting religion or religion correcting itself is not in religion's favor at all. huge wall of text is huge.

I am saying science is a part of religion when said science is done by those who belive in said religions or religous beliefs.

I never said the bolded, and I do not know many who would. I also never said religion is infalible so Ido not see wh y you are attacking me there.

I wasn't trying to attack you :p - - but that's actually part of the definition of what it means to be God. God is perfect by definition, therefore so are his words. If part of his religion was wrong, then that would mean that God would have to be wrong, which is a contradiction.

I can't beleive this is the first you're hearing of the matter. Religions have always stated that their respective texts are the infallible (or inerrant) words of God, this originating from the assumption that God is perfect.

I brought this up to respond to you saying that science could correct religion or that religion could correct itself. that happening would mean the end of that religion



miz1q2w3e said:
thranx said:
miz1q2w3e said:

Dude, listen to what you're saying:  The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon - - - - - - - -  You're saying that science is infused into religious beleifs thus correcting it, that's the same as saying that "science corrects religion",totally different from religion correcting religion

anyways, I don't think it's possible right now for religion to "correct itself" as the source for the information and writings is long gone and we are going to suddenly "discovered" anything new in this field

BUT one very very important thing that you seem to be forgetting is that for something to be corrected, it needs to be "not right" to begin with. if religion is indeed the "infallible word of god" than this by definition makes it impossible to correct as it is not possible for it to be wrong in the first place by definition... so if science in fact WERE to correct religion in one way or another, that religion would be deemed false, end of story

like if some religion stated long ago in its texts that the earth was flat... we now are certain that the earth is round so the discovery of the real shape of the earth would have led to the discarding of this religion - - - - - that's why science correcting religion or religion correcting itself is not in religion's favor at all. huge wall of text is huge.

I am saying science is a part of religion when said science is done by those who belive in said religions or religous beliefs.

I never said the bolded, and I do not know many who would. I also never said religion is infalible so Ido not see wh y you are attacking me there.

I wasn't trying to attack you :p - - but that's actually part of the definition of what it means to be God. God is perfect by definition, therefore so are his words. If part of his religion was wrong, then that would mean that God would have to be wrong, which is a contradiction.

I can't beleive this is the first you're hearing of the matter. Religions have always stated that their respective texts are the infallible (or inerrant) words of God, this originating from the assumption that God is perfect.

I brought this up to respond to you saying that science could correct religion or that religion could correct itself. that happening would mean the end of that religion

No its not, its some peoples definition of a God. Organized religions have, but many people believe in a higher/god that do not belong to any specific church.

 

I stand by that religion does correct itself. To think it is come unchanging thing, even for the big churchs is ludacris. All churchs are run by people and have people in them just that fact alone means they will change. Not to mention how people interpret writings of certain religions. Had science never come to be ( i know impossible) religions world wide would change over time wouldn't they?



thranx said:
miz1q2w3e said:

I wasn't trying to attack you :p - - but that's actually part of the definition of what it means to be God. God is perfect by definition, therefore so are his words. If part of his religion was wrong, then that would mean that God would have to be wrong, which is a contradiction.

I can't beleive this is the first you're hearing of the matter. Religions have always stated that their respective texts are the infallible (or inerrant) words of God, this originating from the assumption that God is perfect.

I brought this up to respond to you saying that science could correct religion or that religion could correct itself. that happening would mean the end of that religion

No its not, its some peoples definition of a God. Organized religions have, but many people believe in a higher/god that do not belong to any specific church.

I stand by that religion does correct itself. To think it is come unchanging thing, even for the big churchs is ludacris. All churchs are run by people and have people in them just that fact alone means they will change. Not to mention how people interpret writings of certain religions. Had science never come to be ( i know impossible) religions world wide would change over time wouldn't they?

I'm sorry, I assumed we were talking about holy religions which all claim to be based off of God's Holy word. I wasn't refering to Individual peoples' beliefs or other non-deitic religions.

Well now that we have that cleared up, I'd like to say that these holy religions all worship a single God who is omnipotent, all knowing, and most of all perfect. So to say that something corrected a holy religion is to say that this holy religion is false and therefore did not originate from a holy God.

*** If it is changed then that means it is no longer the word of God, therefore it is not perfect and furthermore its contents ought to be dismissed and rules no longer be followed by those who believed it was the word of the God they worshiped.



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richardhutnik said:

Humanists?  What have humans collectively demonstrated that makes then worthy of reverence seen humanism?  What I see from humans collectively who aren't tied into an ancient tradition that fosters temperance, love, compassion, and humility, is the pursuit of evermore in a market-driven economy that thinks that a game like Naughty Bear is a great idea, and fanboy wars which produce bile hatred matching the worst of religions fanfare.

Well I wouldn't be so pessimistic, I mean in the last few hundread years many societies have gotten rid of slavery, sectarianism, sexual segregation, sexism and racism to verying degrees. We certainly aren't perfect but in conjuction with the fruits of science that has given us vastly improved living standards and life expectancies I think that life in many countries has vastly improved.

No we aren't anywhere nearly as good as we could be, but the world is a vastly better place to live in for many people then it was even 100 years ago. Yes humanity has a lot of failings and certainly we are moving in poor directions in many areas but that doesn't discount the triumphs of humanity either.



 

You are throwing the idea out that for it to be self correcting

I never said that religion isn't self correcting, I only said that the examples which you gave are not examples of religion correcting itself. The Synods are examples of religion correcting itself (religious authorities meeting and establishing religious dogma).

that all religous people must believe it, religion is not that way.

???

The majority of religous people have no problem with science and infuse it in their beliefs thus self correcting religon.

No, that's science correcting religion, not religion correcting itself, as those discoveries are made within science, not religion.

Science to me is not "oputside" of religion like you are making it to be.

They're two different fields.

To me you are trying to say religion is not self correcting because they are not all sheep following the same thing, i am trying to say religion is self correcting.

I am not saying that. Plus don't religious people, at least Christians, refer to themselves as sheep?

I just havent found the words to convine you of that. I am working on it.

Maybe you're not understanding what I'm saying. English isn't my native language so maybe I'm not expressing myself right. Or maybe you don't have the capacity to understand what I'm saying. Who knows? Hopefully we'll pull through.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

I am saying science is a part of religion when said science is done by those who belive in said religions or religous beliefs.

So if a porn star is also religious does that mean that pornography is also part of religion. 'Cause following your rationale that's what one would deduce.

Basically the discoveries made by those scientists had nothing to do with their religious beliefs. They made those discoveries as scientists using the scientific method and said discoveries were validated by their peers within the scientific fields they worked in.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:

hat are you trying to say? Tooth fairy is a made up character by people. A God or Gods is/are something that people believed ever since they were created. I dont care if people used to believe in something and im not here to argue if their God/Gods are false because they are mythical today. All im saying is that tooth fairy is not anything like a God. So it cant be compared.

People have been believing in made-up mythical/fantasy characters ever since they reached a level of evolution where developed abstract thinking (humans weren't created as they evolved from other life forms). The argument works both ways (tooth fairy and deities).


Tooth Fairy is a character for kids. Apolo, Zeus, Mithra and the othesr were something diffrent. They were considerd a  "higher power" and were superior to humans in every way. Tooth fairy is not in any way a higher power or superior to humans. And when i said "created" i meant when their mind was developed enough for them to think and wonder. I should have been more clear on that.



thranx said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:
Serious_frusting said:

Why are people so hung up on religion in these forums. In my opinion anything to do with god is as believable as the tooth fairy


except that the mankind didnt believe in the tooth fairy since its creation...

How about things people used to believe in then? Apollo, Thor, Ra, Gaia, Odin, Athena, etc. These aren't believable now, and yet people used to believe in them on a grand scale.


those were all Gods. And tooth fairy is not a God. So you cant comapre tooth fair to a god/gods. That list of yours only proves my point

I know they're all gods. I only provided that list because you deemed the tooth fairy a bad example because nobody ever believed in it (which is something I would argue as millions of kids believe in the tooth fairy, like adults worldwide believe in god(s)), so I gave a list of gods which are now considered mythical. I thought maybe it was a more appropriate example than the tooth fairy

All the examples I gave were once believed in by people as much as god, but are now considered mythical. I think it fits in well with Serious frusting's statement and the criteria you deemed to be acceptable if I just replace the tooth fairy with one of those examples...

"Why are people so hung up on religion in these forums. In my opinion anything to do with god is as believable as Thor"

Thor is unbelievable, but you said that no-one ever believed in the tooth fairy and that was the reason it wasn't valid. People used to believe in Thor but don't now, so now it keeps SF's original idea, but conforms to your criteria of having to have once been believed in too.

Either way, if you want a non god example, how about dragons? People were convinced that dragons existed, but now they're considered mythical.

"Why are people so hung up on religion in these forums. In my opinion anything to do with god is as believable as dragons"

But to be brutally honest you're just moving the goalposts because both Thor and the tooth fairy are valid examples. 

What are you trying to say? Tooth fairy is a made up character by people. A God or Gods is/are something that people believed ever since they were created. I dont care if people used to believe in something and im not here to argue if their God/Gods are false because they are mythical today. All im saying is that tooth fairy is not anything like a God. So it cant be compared.


I think me and you just got confused got confused on what we were arguing about, my response may not have even bee to you. My point was you can't disporve current religouse beliefs as wrong because past opnes were. Just as just because past scientific breakthoughs were wrong it does not negate current scientific break throughs. Some confusion may have resutulted do to all of the qoutes, its too time consuming to go through and edit wqoutes so they make more sense. Sorry about that.

what? Was that post aimed at me? Nothing you said there has nothing to do with my post.