nobodyspecial said:
superchunk said:
nobodyspecial said:
But Islam does kill, the Koran instructs muslims to kill:
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." (Sura 9:5)
Sura 2:187-189 “And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels."
But they shouldn't kill one of their own who has killed a "kafir":
“No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50)
However if a muslim stops being a muslim then they're fair game:
“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” (Hadith 9:45; 84.2.57.)
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I've read a few of your posts since I was gone and wow you are so ignorant in not only history of the middle east but also of Islam itself. I'm going to address this post as well as some comments you made in others.
1. Muhammad was not a pedofile. Of his wives only one was a virgin let alone would be considered underage by TODAY'S standards. Everyone else was previously married and generally widows from the wars of his time. The one girl he married that was young was around 13 or so when they married and that was not uncommon during 600's AD. Hell, some modern western nations have it at 13 today (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe).
2. Muhammad, as well as Islam, never ordered the murder of people who are not Muslim. The Quran forbades murder as the death of any human is like the death of all of humanity. The quotes you list above, you obviously pulled from a anti-islamic website, are taken out of context. Every quote about killing 'infidels' in the Quran relates war. Not just because they are not Muslim. On top of that the Quran has strict rules about war such as:
a) You cannot start a war unless it is in the defense of self or others. As God does not like the aggressor.
b) You must follow a list of humane treatment of prisoners of war (this list is essentially identical to today's geneva convention rules)
c) You cannot harm livestock, women, children, or farms/fields in any way; only other military combatants.
If you actually read the Quran, the verses right before your quotes are talking about current (then) wars with the Arab nonMuslims who continually kept attacking the Muslims living in Medinah at the time. On top of the the Kufr or infidels are not 'nonMuslims', but are anyone without belief which includes Christians and Jews. Who also has another special term call 'People of the Book' as they believed in the same God as Muhammad.
3. The Hadiths you quoted are bs. Hadiths are writings that various groups attribute to Muhammad. However, they are known to not have been written down until hundreds of years after the Prophet was dead because he forbade anyone from writing down anything he said/did that he did not proclaim as coming from God. These Hadiths are different depending on which sect of Islam you follow. They contradict each other and the Quran in soooo many different ways its crazy anyone follows their 'advice'. The Quran also states that Muslims are not allowed to take any book but the Quran as their guide, yet almost all Muslim sects have some version of Hadith literature that they use as a primary source above the Quran, especially those with the most extreamist views such as Taliban.
4. (This might not have been your argument) Crusades were horrible to everyone, including Christians. The crusaders murdered not only many Muslims, but Jews and Christians who didn't properly support them as they passed through thier towns. Crusades burned Mosques and Synagogues as well as turned the holy mount in Jerusalem into a trash heap and horse stable. It wasn't until Salah al-din threw out the last crusaders did the region turn to normalcy for ALL worshipers. In fact he forbade anyone from harming any Christian temple or non-military person, according to real Quranic rules of warfare. During nearly all of Arab controlled Islamic Empire (preOttoman) anyone of any faith lived far better in Islamic lands than they did in Christian Rome (Except Catholics of course).
Your continuous spouting merely proves Islamaphobia exists and continues strongly due to fictional ideas of what Islam is and has been as well as using the same tools to hate Muslims as the extreamists use to convert people to their ways. The only way to stop the Islamaphobia as well as extreamism within Islam is by focusing on truth and not allowing ignorance to prevail.
AT this time I am on my work computer and don't have access to my searchable Quranic links to give you all the direct full quotes to disprove you. But, if you wish I can come back with this at a later time, or you can simply search for a online Quran and read the verses surrounding what you quoted.
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1. Aisha was 6 when Mohammed married her and 9 when he consumated the marriage. Consumating a marriage means having sex if you didn't know. That's a lot younger than 13 and does make him a paedophile, it doesn't matter how long ago it happened, marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her at 9 makes anyone a paedophile. (Who knows what he did with her between 6 and 9 too.)
2. Really? So he took over Mecca and eventually Arabia with peace and love then?
3. Oh, so those are just the extremist versions? LMAO!
4. Why am I not suprised that you support the PC "Crusaders where the bad guys" view? If it wasn't for the Crusaders we'd be living in Islamic hellholes so that alone makes them the good guys.
If Islam is so wonderful then why the hell are islamic countries so backwards and oppressive? Why are the vast majority of terrorists muslims? If you're in America you might not be so aware of the islamic problem since although there have been terrorist attacks your muslim population is, percentage wise at least, a lot smaller than in the UK and most likely spread out more since I haven't heard about any islamic American towns and I don't think I've heard about any muslim riots there either. If you have a small muslim population spread out and mostly integrated with the rest of the community then they're not likely to cause trouble as they're more likely to be influenced by the non-muslims around them. However when they become large muslim communities and get more power and things like sharia courts (which they have here in the UK) then the trouble starts and gets made worse by the government and police bowing down to the muslims and treating them as special and more worthy than others.
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1. wrong. The history of that time is not perfect, but the greater majority of historians as well as Quranic law disagree with you. While she was very young when they 'married' in accordance to a prophetic vision that she would be his wife in the future and a great asset to Islam (which she was as after he died she was one of the strongest proponents for peaceful relations and woman's rights that Islam created), she had to of had multiple menstrual cycles before they could consummate the marriage and move into his house. This wouldn't' have occurred at age 9. Far more likely at age 13 which is also what most historians agree with.
2. The history of early Islam is of defense not waging war on 'infidels' as you'd like to believe. Muslims lived happily in Mecca until they were kicked out for talking out against the idol worship. Then went to hide in a Christian country in Ethiopia (except Muhammad as he was protected by his uncle) until Muhammad made an agreement with Arabs in the city of Medina to be their leader as he was known to be just and could help solve their issues. Even the Jewish sects there at that time welcomed him in as he was already known for his honesty and fairness through his business travels there as well. Muhammad's muslim group grew very sizable and began to threaten the economic livelihood of the idol worshiping meccans as even then Meccah was a big tourist stop for religious travelers of all faiths. (yes even christians had a cross and picture of Jesus in the Kabbah during this time). THEY started to attack the Muslim caravans and Muhammad began receiving his first revelations about the need to defend your with war only when necessary. So after another lethal attack, they had a few very successful battles vs the meccans. Then peace was agreed as the Quran states you must acquire peace if it is offered. However, it was again broken by the meccans when they attacked Medinah and tried to basically end the muslims once and for all. However, the muslims built great defenses and eventually one the battle and then strode into Mecca a short while after without any bloodshed at all. That was the beginning of the unification of Arabia under Islamic rule. Islam itself spread slower over time.
Christianity has a far more bloody history under Rome than Islam has under Muhammad or the original caliphate.
3. I don't know what you mean here. Yes there are Hadiths that are extreme and those that are simply small things like his favorite color being green. I argue that they should never be used for Islamic laws and should be removed from Islamic philosophy entirely.
4. The crusaders had nothing to do with the spread of Islamic rule in any part of Europe. Don't kid yourself. Even a Christian study of the history shows that they are wholly evil enterprises that had no good intentions or outcomes.
5. Islamic countries today are no different than the Dark ages of Christianity when witches were routinely burned at the stake and only the priests were allowed to read the Bible. Power, control, and hatred/fear for others is what drove Christianity to these perils and its what drove Islam to what it is today.
Just a simple dissection of the Quran disproves the extremist views presented in many Hadiths and strong held 'truths' presented by the radical imams of the muslim world today.
Read a little history on the actual rise of Islam. It was remarkably quick and peaceful because the inhabitants of these cities were so severely taxed and mistreated by Christian Rome all the Muslims had to do was offer full religious freedom with a far smaller tax. Great cities like Alexandria in Egypt fell to Muslim rule without a single sword being drawn. Yet you'd like to believe they went in and murdered all the Christians and immediately forced islamic beliefs. However, even though it took a very short time for the Islamic Empire to reach Spain, it actually took hundreds of years for Islam to become the dominant religion of these regions. In fact, if it weren't for the inquisition, Spain probably would still be Muslim.
Read the history of the largest Muslim nation in the world by population. Indonesia was never under Arab/Muslim control. It was purely a product of slow conversion due to Arab traders and it was only very recently that any extremist element started to grow over there and that is due to Wahhabism influence. (look up wahhabi for more info on rise of extremism in Islam)
Regardless of what you want to believe, the great majority of Islamic history was full of freedoms not found in other nations. Its the product of Ottoman control, western Empires, and increased institutionalization of imams and radical thoughts that has led to this rather new phenomena of extremism in Islam.
Want more proof, research Jewish history in Muslim Spain, or Sufi Muslims (if they were a religion that started today in most Islamic nations they'd be killed, but were openly accepted back then due to the tolerance that existed in early Muslim society).
