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Forums - Gaming - Final Fantasy 12 & 13 and the Future of the Series!!!

lestatdark on 24 August 2010
AkibaFan said:
A203D said:
Pristine20 said:

Why does it have to be be vs the other with FF fans. I love both games and appreciate their differences. They both have flaws but not enough to kill the games.

Hmmm, you have a point, the thread is based on my own personal opinion. I felt both were flawed games but both also have great aspects. but imo FF12 was a flawed game because Matsuno left the project. thats not to say it wouldve been perfect, we simply dont know how well it wouldve turned out.(i think it wouldve been a lot better).

but my point is that the reason Matsuno left the project was because of his lack of cooperation to make the game in the same vien that Kitase, Nomura & Nojima have taken the series. and FF13 represents the fulfilment of their vision of how to make an FF game. and FF13 has the worst meta-critic score and imo, its not a good FF game. the stuff i've discussed are things that a lot of well respected publicaitions like Edge, or gamespot have slated it for. my point is that FF13 has been the wrong direction for the series and it shows when compared to FF12!! and i think a lot of fans feel the same even if they didnt like FF12.

th problem with ur point is on many sites on th internet ff13 hs a bettr user score avg than ff12

and ff12 nevr made famitsu's list of "user voted best games ever", ff13 has made th list twice so far.

to me it luks like fans liked ff13's direction more out of ff13 and ff12.

Anecdotal evidence at best.

One could also point the fact that FFXII is the only FF game ever to have a perfect Famitsu score and being one of the best critical average FFs out there.

Does that mean anything factual? Not really, other than critic wise, it was better accepted than FFXIII.

Also, the poll you're referring to was done in Japan a few months after the release of the game. Of course public perception would be shifted to the most current FF game, as FF has a massive following in Japan. 

That would be like doing a poll comparing DQ to FF after DQX releases. Who do you think would have the most votes? 



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A203D on 24 August 2010
Aiddon said:

no, I found that all of them sucked; they looked like a bad meshing of Nomura and Yoshida whose styles were NEVER meant to be combined. Maybe I could have forgiven a LOT of things if the plot WAS engaging. But it wasn't. At all. The characters bored me, the events were forgettable, and I found the dialog to be pretentious instead of legitimately intelligent unlike, say, Vagrant Story or the Ogre Battle Saga. And that's what bugged me the MOST about 12 is that there were tinges of Matsuno in there, but most of it was just buried under what seemed to be people who really didn't GET what Matsuno's sense of design philosophy and story-telling was and because of that I found it a little insulting. I mean, that guy was appointed by Sakaguchi himself, that says something. I think Matsuno is legitimately the only guy at Square who could breath new life into the series and take it in a bold new direction that it so sorely needs.

Sadly i've havent played the Ogre Battle Saga (yet). i've finished Vagrant Story and i think i know what you mean. i did like the story a lot, but it sometimes felt like vital peices were missing, elements were not integrated properly into the plot - like the jugdes. personally i think thats because Vaan and Penelo got in the way of the story he wouldve told, i think the cast wouldve also been fleshed out a bit more. (what that game couldve been had he not have left!!!)

anyway the whole point i've been trying to make this whole time is that primarily Kitase is to blame for the series at the moment. which is why a lot of fans are unhappy with. i dont think the FF13 developers understand that cutscenes dont make a game, its the game that makes the cutscenes. but your right i too think that Matsuno is one of 3 (Ito and Sakaguchi being the other to) who can take FF into the future, where other franchises like Mass Effect, and Assassin's Creed are heading!!



AkibaFan on 24 August 2010
lestatdark said:
AkibaFan said:
A203D said:
Pristine20 said:

Why does it have to be be vs the other with FF fans. I love both games and appreciate their differences. They both have flaws but not enough to kill the games.

Hmmm, you have a point, the thread is based on my own personal opinion. I felt both were flawed games but both also have great aspects. but imo FF12 was a flawed game because Matsuno left the project. thats not to say it wouldve been perfect, we simply dont know how well it wouldve turned out.(i think it wouldve been a lot better).

but my point is that the reason Matsuno left the project was because of his lack of cooperation to make the game in the same vien that Kitase, Nomura & Nojima have taken the series. and FF13 represents the fulfilment of their vision of how to make an FF game. and FF13 has the worst meta-critic score and imo, its not a good FF game. the stuff i've discussed are things that a lot of well respected publicaitions like Edge, or gamespot have slated it for. my point is that FF13 has been the wrong direction for the series and it shows when compared to FF12!! and i think a lot of fans feel the same even if they didnt like FF12.

th problem with ur point is on many sites on th internet ff13 hs a bettr user score avg than ff12

and ff12 nevr made famitsu's list of "user voted best games ever", ff13 has made th list twice so far.

to me it luks like fans liked ff13's direction more out of ff13 and ff12.

Anecdotal evidence at best.

One could also point the fact that FFXII is the only FF game ever to have a perfect Famitsu score and being one of the best critical average FFs out there.

Does that mean anything factual? Not really, other than critic wise, it was better accepted than FFXIII.

Also, the poll you're referring to was done in Japan a few months after the release of the game. Of course public perception would be shifted to the most current FF game, as FF has a massive following in Japan. 

That would be like doing a poll comparing DQ to FF after DQX releases. Who do you think would have the most votes? 

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19116

this poll, a same one like th ff13 one was done a few months aftr ff12 released, ff12 ddnt even rank in th top 100.

if public perception shifts to new ff game, why didnt ff12 rank ther?

in a similar list done months after ff13 released saw ff13 being at th top of it

yes it is anecdotl evidence, bt it is all th evidence i had to show public perceptin whch a203d was talkng about



AkibaFan on 24 August 2010
A203D said:
Aiddon said:

no, I found that all of them sucked; they looked like a bad meshing of Nomura and Yoshida whose styles were NEVER meant to be combined. Maybe I could have forgiven a LOT of things if the plot WAS engaging. But it wasn't. At all. The characters bored me, the events were forgettable, and I found the dialog to be pretentious instead of legitimately intelligent unlike, say, Vagrant Story or the Ogre Battle Saga. And that's what bugged me the MOST about 12 is that there were tinges of Matsuno in there, but most of it was just buried under what seemed to be people who really didn't GET what Matsuno's sense of design philosophy and story-telling was and because of that I found it a little insulting. I mean, that guy was appointed by Sakaguchi himself, that says something. I think Matsuno is legitimately the only guy at Square who could breath new life into the series and take it in a bold new direction that it so sorely needs.

Sadly i've havent played the Ogre Battle Saga (yet). i've finished Vagrant Story and i think i know what you mean. i did like the story a lot, but it sometimes felt like vital peices were missing, elements were not integrated properly into the plot - like the jugdes. personally i think thats because Vaan and Penelo got in the way of the story he wouldve told, i think the cast wouldve also been fleshed out a bit more. (what that game couldve been had he not have left!!!)

anyway the whole point i've been trying to make this whole time is that primarily Kitase is to blame for the series at the moment. which is why a lot of fans are unhappy with. i dont think the FF13 developers understand that cutscenes dont make a game, its the game that makes the cutscenes. but your right i too think that Matsuno is one of 3 (Ito and Sakaguchi being the other to) who can take FF into the future, where other franchises like Mass Effect, and Assassin's Creed are heading!!

u keep blaming kitase when he directed the fan favrite ff6 and ff7.

bt also directed th hated ff8.



lestatdark on 24 August 2010
AkibaFan said:
lestatdark said:
AkibaFan said:
A203D said:
Pristine20 said:

Why does it have to be be vs the other with FF fans. I love both games and appreciate their differences. They both have flaws but not enough to kill the games.

Hmmm, you have a point, the thread is based on my own personal opinion. I felt both were flawed games but both also have great aspects. but imo FF12 was a flawed game because Matsuno left the project. thats not to say it wouldve been perfect, we simply dont know how well it wouldve turned out.(i think it wouldve been a lot better).

but my point is that the reason Matsuno left the project was because of his lack of cooperation to make the game in the same vien that Kitase, Nomura & Nojima have taken the series. and FF13 represents the fulfilment of their vision of how to make an FF game. and FF13 has the worst meta-critic score and imo, its not a good FF game. the stuff i've discussed are things that a lot of well respected publicaitions like Edge, or gamespot have slated it for. my point is that FF13 has been the wrong direction for the series and it shows when compared to FF12!! and i think a lot of fans feel the same even if they didnt like FF12.

th problem with ur point is on many sites on th internet ff13 hs a bettr user score avg than ff12

and ff12 nevr made famitsu's list of "user voted best games ever", ff13 has made th list twice so far.

to me it luks like fans liked ff13's direction more out of ff13 and ff12.

Anecdotal evidence at best.

One could also point the fact that FFXII is the only FF game ever to have a perfect Famitsu score and being one of the best critical average FFs out there.

Does that mean anything factual? Not really, other than critic wise, it was better accepted than FFXIII.

Also, the poll you're referring to was done in Japan a few months after the release of the game. Of course public perception would be shifted to the most current FF game, as FF has a massive following in Japan. 

That would be like doing a poll comparing DQ to FF after DQX releases. Who do you think would have the most votes? 

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=19116

this poll, a same one like th ff13 one was done a few months aftr ff12 released, ff12 ddnt even rank in th top 100.

in a similar list done months after ff13 released saw ff13 being at th top of it

yes it is anecdotl evidence, bt it is all th evidence i had to show public perceptin whch a203d was talkng about

Actually, that poll was released months before that thread was made. Seeing that the thread was made on May 2006 and that FFXII released on March 2006, it's a bit difficult for FFXII to appear on it, since no one had played it yet



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CPU - i7 8700K 3.7 GHz (4.7 GHz turbo) 6 cores OC'd to 5.2 GHz with Watercooling (Hydro Series H110i) | MB - Gigabyte Z370 HD3P ATX | Gigabyte GTX 1080ti Gaming OC BLACK 11G (1657 MHz Boost Core / 11010 MHz Memory) | RAM - Corsair DIMM 32GB DDR4, 2400 MHz | PSU - Corsair CX650M (80+ Bronze) 650W | Audio - Asus Essence STX II 7.1 | Monitor - Samsung U28E590D 4K UHD, Freesync, 1 ms, 60 Hz, 28"

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ethomaz on 24 August 2010

Aiddon said:
No, it's NOT a non-issue, it's just an issue that has a convenient way out of an argument. It was quite obvious that the team WANTED the player to use that system. Even if you could turn off the Gambits the combat was still boring, tedious, and messy. Bring in the needless License Board and the downright USELESS summons and you have a recipe to both boredom and frustration at the same time.

But this is just for you... I loved the FF12 battle system and it's very excitable.



lestatdark on 24 August 2010
ethomaz said:

Aiddon said:
No, it's NOT a non-issue, it's just an issue that has a convenient way out of an argument. It was quite obvious that the team WANTED the player to use that system. Even if you could turn off the Gambits the combat was still boring, tedious, and messy. Bring in the needless License Board and the downright USELESS summons and you have a recipe to both boredom and frustration at the same time.

But this is just for you... I loved the FF12 battle system and it's very excitable.

Same here. With Gambits off, battles like Zodiark and Yiazmat were amongst the most exciting, difficult and thrilling battles I've had on any RPG



Current PC Build

CPU - i7 8700K 3.7 GHz (4.7 GHz turbo) 6 cores OC'd to 5.2 GHz with Watercooling (Hydro Series H110i) | MB - Gigabyte Z370 HD3P ATX | Gigabyte GTX 1080ti Gaming OC BLACK 11G (1657 MHz Boost Core / 11010 MHz Memory) | RAM - Corsair DIMM 32GB DDR4, 2400 MHz | PSU - Corsair CX650M (80+ Bronze) 650W | Audio - Asus Essence STX II 7.1 | Monitor - Samsung U28E590D 4K UHD, Freesync, 1 ms, 60 Hz, 28"

Aiddon on 24 August 2010
A203D said:
Aiddon said:

no, I found that all of them sucked; they looked like a bad meshing of Nomura and Yoshida whose styles were NEVER meant to be combined. Maybe I could have forgiven a LOT of things if the plot WAS engaging. But it wasn't. At all. The characters bored me, the events were forgettable, and I found the dialog to be pretentious instead of legitimately intelligent unlike, say, Vagrant Story or the Ogre Battle Saga. And that's what bugged me the MOST about 12 is that there were tinges of Matsuno in there, but most of it was just buried under what seemed to be people who really didn't GET what Matsuno's sense of design philosophy and story-telling was and because of that I found it a little insulting. I mean, that guy was appointed by Sakaguchi himself, that says something. I think Matsuno is legitimately the only guy at Square who could breath new life into the series and take it in a bold new direction that it so sorely needs.

Sadly i've havent played the Ogre Battle Saga (yet). i've finished Vagrant Story and i think i know what you mean. i did like the story a lot, but it sometimes felt like vital peices were missing, elements were not integrated properly into the plot - like the jugdes. personally i think thats because Vaan and Penelo got in the way of the story he wouldve told, i think the cast wouldve also been fleshed out a bit more. (what that game couldve been had he not have left!!!)

anyway the whole point i've been trying to make this whole time is that primarily Kitase is to blame for the series at the moment. which is why a lot of fans are unhappy with. i dont think the FF13 developers understand that cutscenes dont make a game, its the game that makes the cutscenes. but your right i too think that Matsuno is one of 3 (Ito and Sakaguchi being the other to) who can take FF into the future, where other franchises like Mass Effect, and Assassin's Creed are heading!!


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Matsuno NEVER intended to shove Vaan and Penelo in there as they seem grossly out of place. Hell, even Ashe seems awkwardly inserted into the narrative while Basch, Balthier, and Fran fit and they get so little screen time that I can't really remember anything about them. I mostly blame that on the half of the team that came from the PlayOnline section (y'know, that ones that nearly made Matsuno lose his mind).

But, yeah, the current FF team doesn't know what to do anymore. XIII was really just an attempt to copy some stuff from VII (Female Cloud, Black Guy, etc, etc) and it utterly failed. The current team HAS to go, damn near all of them. Kitase and Toriyama have to hand this series to a new team that has radically different ideas without "Westernizing" things necesarilly.



leo90 on 24 August 2010

Both games are perfect examples of an RPG. There are some aspect of FFXII i liked and some of FFXIII's. For instance the battle system of FFXIII is the best in the series. But at the same time having being able to use one character at a time makes it a little restricted. One thing i din't like about FFXIII is that it is a very small game compared to most of the FF's. You can complete it in 70 to 100 hrs and that's not enough at least not for me.
And you can't possibly forget the awesome graphics this game has.
On the other hand FFXII is a very lengthy game. There is alot to do in the game. Loot system and Treasure system add whole lot of anticipation for the rare drops and rare items. Not to forget the Quickening system. Techniques, Strategies and many more things are to be considered.

My fav. FF's

1. Final Fantasy XII

2. Final Fantasy X, VIII

3. Final Fantasy XIII



dtewi on 24 August 2010

AHHH! T3H SPOILERS!

*ahem*

I've been playing FF12. I think it's an incredible game so far. The story and characters aren't as gripping as like FF7, but I think it's a good game.

I'm hardly using gambits. The only gambits I use are like "Ally HP: <40% ----> Curaga" and "Foe: Nearest ----> Attack" and "Foe: Pary leaders' target ---> Attack". Those are the only ones I use.

I think the battle system and the license board is the best in any Final Fantasy.

I love the way you get loot, and the augments on the license board, getting quickenings to double and triple your MP, weapons sometimes chaining for like 5 hits, the way the battles are in real-time, and you can open the menu at any time.

It's the absolute best in any Final Fantasy.



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you