I desgined this thread to find some Final Fantasy 12 fans, and to dicuss why we think its better than FF13, althought some aspects of FF13 are a lot better than FF12. those areas being character development and paradigm shift !! Personally I dont like the way the series is going and I'm hoping some people agree that FF12 was actully the right direction for the series.

(This isnt meant to trigger a flame war, its just supposed to be a friendly discussion!!)

To start the first area to mention is cutscenes and gameplay. Imo FF13 has gone in the wrong direction because of Yoshinori Kitase and the way (since his arrival) the series has grown increasinly dependant on cinematic sequences. In fact, FF13 contains about 6 hours of cutscenes. Imo this is something FF13 suffers for. Instead of playing the game for the gameplay, we play the game so we can see the next cutscene, I dont think they've reached the right balance. I dont think cutscenes are the only way to tell a story and I dont think that watching a cutscene every time you reach a new vector or every 20mins is good gameplay design. In fact I think the reason gameplay has sufferred so much is because they've spent too much time on the cutscenes. Other games that tell stories dont need 6 hours of cutscenes - so why is this the central gameplay element??

This is something FF12 excels in; indeed we have cutscenes, but we have little character development in those cutscenes. This is because the cutscenes are designed to trigger our imagination and direct your motivation to playing the game. The gameplay of FF12 is exploration, and its quite overwheaming at times, which is why FF13's linear design is sometimes better for focusing on story and character development. However the cutscenes of FF12 are just so good, there filled with a mature theatrical drama, where the characters dont over emphasise the gravity of the situation. The crew in FF12 didnt bother filling cutscenes with every bit of melodrama (is there even any melodrama in FF12); they use the cutscenes as a way of advancing the plot, and deepening the atmosphere, they dont use too many cutscenes by comparison.

I also think that FF12 went in the right direction in terms of characters and voice acting. The "true" cast of FF12; Basch, Fran, Balthier and Ashe seem to me to be more seriously written and realistic that those of FF13. For example Snow Villers says "hold on baby your heros on the way!!!". The FF12 cast never say anything over the top (Vaan & Penelo dont count, will be explained later), there voiced so maturely, unlike Vanille or Snow. Snow's lines sometimes sound like something out of cartoon, and hes not the only culprit. I've provided some links to arguability the best cutscenes in each game for comparision. Looking at FF13's the lines sound a lot like something you could find in cartoons; Hope: "your day of wrath is coming", (theres more examples, but we must press on) as opposed to the characters of FF12 who dont seem to be so focused on delivering those kinds of lines, but more meaningful dialogue. Okay, the FF12 one couldve been better, but that cutscene is just bad ass!!!

FF12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPbEBZSNI4

FF13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O43r91KbWzM

But why is it relevant to compare these games now??? The truth about FF12 is that its an incomplete work, Yasumi Matsuno the director is rumoured to have been forced to leave SE because he wanted to make the game a lot more mature and serious, with Basch as the main character. And because he didnt conform to the style of FF10 (Tidus & Yuna) he never completed his work. And we were left with a game that shouldve been the best FF, but was spoiled because it was too different. In my opinion, had Matusuno finished FF12 it wouldve been phenominal. Its rumoured Vaan and Penelo were not even meant to be in it, thats why the story dosent have much relevance for them. Anyway the game was still in good hands when Hiroyuki Ito took over, but still not what it shouldve been.

The other reason this could be bad is because Tetsuya Normura could be adopting the style of Kitase & Toriyama's FF13 for FF13Verus. Personally I see a lot of Squall in Noctis, and a lot of Rinoa in Stella. Why is this bad?? becuase I dont think teenage romanace as the central storytelling strand makes for a good story.

See, I disagree with you.

I thought FF12 was phenomenal the way it was.

One of the project leads said of the game:

"If you enjoyed the game, please praise Matsuno. But if you did not enjoy it, lay that at his feet too."

*Tagged for later.

Okay to the OP; first things first Final Fantasy XIII does not have 6 hours of cutscenes, the longest cutscenes in the game were in Chapter 7 and 8 and they did not add up to more than a half hour (Per chapter).  And if the game did have 6 hours of cutscenes... wow could have fooled me.  Secondly Matsuno had to leave Final Fantasy XII's development because he got sick not because he chose or he was ousted.  Final Fantasy XIII almost had it right, they just didn't balance the game out and had these 40 minute runs for less than 5 minutes of cutscenes and then on top of that they made you run another 40 minutes to see the rest of that 5 minute cutscene if they just merged the character rants with the flashbacks the cutscenes in the game would have been more meaningful and you'd probably complain less (I know I would have).  Though from what it sounds like with your complaints it seems like you don't like anime.  Everything in Final Fantasy XIII conforms to some shonen type, all the characters.  Watch Naruto or Bleach and you'll see similarities between characterizations for the characters in Final Fantasy XIII and said anime.  Final Fantasy XII did things differently and didn't rely on the shonen character types which is probably why you liked the cutscenes better. 

http://www.finalfantasy13game.com/#/uk/news/17

thats the offical site - Yusuke Tanaka - page 7/21 in the news section: theres more than 6 hours of cutscenes in FF13.

No one really knows the truth about Yasumi Matsuno. No one at SE are talking. But the rumours are based around his vision for a more realistic and mature FF with Basch as the main character. A man torchered by the horrors of the past, and how he survives his false imprisonment to face the Judge Magister who condemned him. I can believe this is the case, because Vaan and Penelo dont actully have much to do with the game.

Anyway it wasnt just this, SE were unhappy with the demographic the game could target if it was a more mature game. and they kept having arguments etc with him and its rumoured he feel ill because of this. he eventully bowed out of development because he couldnt make the game the way he wanted. although its rumored he was forced to leave development because of this. (i honestly dont know if thats the case).

Yes and no, i dont watch anime much (not much time) not all of them are like that, but either way Kitase, Nomura, Nojima have maybe taken it into that style - and my point is that it dosent necessarily make a good game. FF12 represents what FF could be if Kitase, Nomura and Nojima didnt take the series in that direction. Sakaguchi didnt need that in FF4, 5 or 6. and after FF12 i dont think that FF13 is the right direction for the series; it certainly wasnt before Kitase was there.

Personally i think if Basch was the main character it wouldve been his personal journey of redemption, for the kingdom he had failed. it wouldve been a more emotional journey, but i think it was spoiled with Vaan and Penelo who really had not much to do with it. They also wouldve had more time to focus on Fran and Balthier, a non teenage romance!. not to mention i think the story wouldve been a lot better, imo.

Edit: imo we wouldve also had a lot more depth on the Occuria, the Espers and the world of Ivalice.

Good luck with that!

I thought it was great the way it was. Vaan and Penelo added a necessary moral anchor to people who might lose their perspective otherwise (especially Ashe) and the story was still Basch's tale of redemption.

And I'm immensely glad that Fran and Balthier's relationship wasn't summed up in some romance plot. It's mor subtle than that, and I appreciate the tone with which it was handled.

To clarify: the game is already the best in the franchise to me.

FF12 fan here, it's my second favourite FF, right next to FFVI.

I felt that every plot was throughly executed and well planned. Basch's redemption for his failure to protect his old kingdom, the feud he had with his brother Gabranth, Ashe's inner struggle to lead a nation to it's freedom from the political struggle between the two major super-powers of ivalice, Balthier's detachment from it's father's footsteps, Fran's foregoing her own race's traditions for a much broader comprehension of the world around them, and the threat that was at their doorstep, and many, many other side-plots. 

ther will nevr be one direction for FF

evry FF is different, deal wth it.

for me FFX-2 and FF12 made me hate FF, FF13 hs made me luv the series again. FF12 problem ws it ws jst boring, th story, characters, music, battle sistem. All boring. one gud thng FF12 had was its setting, it felt like playng old FF.