I wouldn't personally call GTA a complex game...I mean, how complex is it to run around killing people, stealing cars and taking out cops? =)....of course I suppose if you are actually playing the story, we might agree but who'd bother doing that?

imo, i think ssx series is a great example of gameplay comparison.  same game, but on the traditional controller (ps2), all the buttons you have to hit before a combo occurs makes it less fun for me.  versus wii, motion sensing, flick of a control, very intuitive gameplay control, that made ssx blur very fun.  it's not the complexity of the game that pushes people away from a console or attract them to it.  the success is in the complex controls made simple for the same fun.

I understand a part of what kwaad is talking about. Zelda is an epic game but what is the learning curve on that game? It is virtually non existant. I was walking through that game (put it down for another game). The gamecube was the exact same way. the GC and Wii games seem like entry games.... well with the exception of Ikaruga but that was a port. There is nothing wrong or offensive about that. But instead of defending against a percieved attack people here please list games that you feel invalidate kwaads opinion. What are the learning curves of the average wii game? How about the xbox or playstation line?

Yea I would have to say the hardest and challenging games have been on the xbox and playstation line. 

speaking of hard, the level 3 and above (difficulty after cruisin' and breezin' levels) i would have to say is hard.  fun, but hard. and oh yea, it's on nintendo ds.

Reading this thread makes me laugh a bit. I remember years past when Nintendo people (myself one of them) would say "Gamecube's sweet, we love our games." sony people would attack... "You got GTA, Final Fantasy, anything for adults?" And we would try to ignore it, and tell them Wind Waker is great, dispite the graphics the sonyites would say sucked. Now though... Now we hang out and say "Wii rocks. You should get it. Zelda blew me away." or, at worst "Finally, we got something that can beat a playstation. Thanks, God." But the Sonyites, they make me chuckle. So many times in forums now do I see "F*ck Wii, it's kid shit. We're still gonna win. Doesn't matter what titles we lose." I would have to say, for the people who play sony and nothing else, and call themselves "True, hardcore gamers", you're sure sore losers...

In terms of sales, I don't think having a fun, easy to learn game is a bad thing at all. It gives an opportunity for everyone to partake in the fun, not just particular niche. I can't imagine anything more fun than a game I can play with my parents and my children at the same time.

so the implication is, nintendo fans ignore the bad things others say. or just say things of why they enjoy the nintendo more.  whereas when the table turns, sony fans just attack other consoles by cursing them without making a valid argument? :)

That's what I've been seeing. Don't know about all you.

Hey Kwaad, Sorry - but I don't agree at all. Several reasons why: i) Does the Wii have a simpler, or more complex input system? The answer, is that it varies based on the game. Is bowling on the Wii simpler or more complex? Does this make the game "simpler" or "deeper"? Apart from the control system, there is *no* difference in Wii games and PS3/360 games (or other Sony games). If a complex PS2 game (GTA?) is ported to the Wii - does this automatically dumb it down? ii) The Wii appeals to a wider target audience than the 360 or PS3. No question about that. If you go with the assumption that games like "Wii Sports" are "simpler/dumber", then it follows that only people that play this sort of game - and there will be a % of them - also only play simpler games. BUT - this only applies to a PERCENTAGE of Wii users - not all of them. I'll be rather insulted if you try argue that this applies to myself (or most of the other "hardcore" Wii users on this site). iii) In MY opinion, most of Sony's games are DUMBER/SIMPLER than Nintendo titles. They might use less buttons or be simpler to play - but in terms of depth or actual complexity, they are more complex. I'll use Motorstorm vrs ExciteTruck as my example. Those who have properly played both titles will understand exactly what I mean (the stars complexity/tricks on the track vrs 'driving' in Motorstorm). In fact most of Sony's "big" titles (GT, Rachet & Clank, Everybodys Golf) are all "simple" titles to play.

 wel.... wait....did you just imply that Gran Turismo is a simple game to play?

I cannot believe I am reading you trying to describe the complexity of Wii sports. Kwaaf started of these topic about what people are looking for/expecting from future titles. I grasp it as a blanket statment not an abosolute (sorta like saying PS3/360 users like violent games). There are no "complex game (at least that I have played) on the wii but that doesn't mean there wont be. Chances are those types of games will "NOT" be the mainstay of the wii. I  just commented above about what people percieve kwaads comments to mean and there you proved it. You see this more as an attack on your character than of a general descriptions of the games. Liking simple games do not mean you are a simple person, it just means your level of enjoyment is different..... or you have a life. I have a Wii and I refuse to let anyone mock me for it but I agree with the statement about the games.

Maybe its a point of view thing..... or that I have played games TOOO much but the Wii games aren't that complex and I find that relaxing at times.