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Forums - General - Krugman: Spend Now, Save Later

Final-Fan said:
HappySqurriel said:
In what way is Social Security any different than a Ponzie Scheme?

Does Social Security promise huge returns that necessitate unrealistic continuous growth in the payer base vs. the payout clientele the way a Ponzi scheme does? 


While most Ponzi Schemes are marketed with the expectations of unrealistic returns with little or no risk, a Ponzi scheme only requires a system where existing investors are paid out through funds contributed from new investors. With that said, being that Social Security will collapse long before someone in their 20s or 30s will retire, any claim of return from Social Security could be considered an unrealistic return.



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Squilliam said:

I wonder how many people complain because the U.S. government is inefficient. Would the same issues be raised if the people here were from Australia for instance?


I’m from Canada, and while there are areas where our government does a dramatically better job (education), I see the same kinds of incompetence and inefficiency across all levels of government in Canada that plague the United States; and I believe incompetence and inefficiency is a characteristic of all governments.

Consider that when a private organization sees a reduction in income they have an incentive to improve efficiency to maintain the quality of their services in order to prevent their competition from stealing their customers. In contrast, when a public organization sees a reduction in income there is an incentive to become less efficient and to make cuts in the most noticeable way possible so that the funding will get returned. This is why teachers are always the first to lose their job (and often the only people to lose their job) when education funding is cut even though the cost of bureaucracy has been estimated as high as 33% of the cost of education in some systems.



HappySqurriel said:


I find your argument rather close minded and childish because you seem to assume that the only means to help an individual is through the government; and that anyone who rejects the government’s authority or ability to help people obviously doesn’t sympathise or empathise with these individuals. About the only body in the government that has a demonstrated ability to transform individuals to the extent that they can consistently make positive changes in their life is the military; and most of the programs and organizations that set out specifically to help the poor end up worsening their outcomes in the long run.

With that said obviously the only answer to the question is providing meaningful help, but the thing I must point out is that enabling someone to continue the destructive behaviours that are leading to their undesirable outcomes is the opposite of meaningful help. In most cases the most meaningful help an individual can get is to give them a job, help them get meaningful education or training, and to help/encourage them to live within their means; while there are some governments that have shown an ability to provide adequate education, no government has demonstrated an ability to create stable, meaningful and productive work and all governments seem to discourage people from living within their means.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote, or do you run what I write through some sort of filter that all of a sudden has it saying things that aren't there.

I have NOT said the government is the only way to help people.  I can also say here it is one of the worst ways to get things done.  What I have been saying over and over again, and PLEASE read it this time, that unless people take responsibility and prevent problems arising in the first place, you will get more government.  Tax dollars will end up being raised, or money borrowed to spend, to take care of issues people are complaining about.  This also comes from politicians pandering, and wanting to get elected, so they make promises to bring home the bacon for this aznd that being done.  And people do get something out of it, or it wouldn't exist.

As far as the government not being able to create stable, meaningful and productive work, the government built the Internet, also built damns and infrastructure, and has funded scientific research.  They also built the highway system in America, that enabled mobility.    And in your world, what do you think would happen if there was no welfare system?  Do you think you would have more or less cases like Ray Williams?  And, you can say all we need to give more tax breaks so people can give it directly to the poor.  Really?  Exactly to what level do you think people would give more if you were to abolish taxes completely?  If people don't give now, then why would they later?  Unless there is economic incentive to give to charities, like the tax on the inheritance tax and tax deductions for setting up trusts that aid charities, do you think there would be more or less giving?

In your view of things, where exactly do people get motivated to actually be charitable, if your only thing involved is "more freedom"?  



HappySqurriel said:
Squilliam said:

I wonder how many people complain because the U.S. government is inefficient. Would the same issues be raised if the people here were from Australia for instance?


I’m from Canada, and while there are areas where our government does a dramatically better job (education), I see the same kinds of incompetence and inefficiency across all levels of government in Canada that plague the United States; and I believe incompetence and inefficiency is a characteristic of all governments.

Consider that when a private organization sees a reduction in income they have an incentive to improve efficiency to maintain the quality of their services in order to prevent their competition from stealing their customers. In contrast, when a public organization sees a reduction in income there is an incentive to become less efficient and to make cuts in the most noticeable way possible so that the funding will get returned. This is why teachers are always the first to lose their job (and often the only people to lose their job) when education funding is cut even though the cost of bureaucracy has been estimated as high as 33% of the cost of education in some systems.

Consider this article:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/04/lay-off-the-layoffs.html

What do you do about industries, in their collective wisdom, decide to end up trashing their employee base to maximize profits?  Also, answer how exactly in doing this, customer service has improved.  When you call in for tech support to get equipment fixed, is the service better now or worse, because they offload the tech support to people in India who speak with thick accents, and you can't understand what they have to say?  Currently, I am looking at a printer here that stopped working with my laptop, and I get NO help for it.  It is do it myself.  Is this your idea of improved quality?  And consider Walmart.  How is customer service when you go into Walmart?  Walmart has entered into pay the least amount of money, and cutting costs, quality be damned.

And let's look at health care.  Do you know where America ranks for quality of health care among industrialized nations?  Near the bottom in life expectency and other things that show a signs of people taking good care of themselves.  Oh yes, emergency response is excellent in America.  So yes, America is great at jumping on one crisis to another but sucks at preventative health care.  It alos shows it is great at manifesting obesity, diabetes and so on.  All these signs of people taking their collective freedom and running it into the ground. To this, you want to argue that America needs MORE freedom here?  Whe people can't handle the freedom they have now, why the heck would there be even more given them?



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(Really being born in the country making you a citizen should be gotten rid of in general anyway.)

Why on earth do you think that's a bad idea?  What additional restrictions would you place? 

That your mother who has given birth to you is here legally.

 



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Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(Really being born in the country making you a citizen should be gotten rid of in general anyway.)

Why on earth do you think that's a bad idea?  What additional restrictions would you place? 

That your mother who has given birth to you is here legally.

So if a U.S. citizen has an illegitimate child with an illegal immigrant, his kid would not be a citizen. 



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Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(Really being born in the country making you a citizen should be gotten rid of in general anyway.)

Why on earth do you think that's a bad idea?  What additional restrictions would you place? 

That your mother who has given birth to you is here legally.

So if a U.S. citizen has an illegitimate child with an illegal immigrant, his kid would not be a citizen. 


I suppose you'd have to make it either parent to avoid sexism that way.  Though I'd still require a genetic test to prove it in the case of the US citizen being Male.



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:

Let me throw the story of the former NBA player, Ray WIlliams, into the mix:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2010/07/02/desperate_times/?page=1

So, we should just say, "Well, in a free society, we will end up with people being forced to live out of their cars.  That is the price of enabling people to pursue their dreams and get rich."?

The guy is now living out of his car, after being a star player in the NBA.

First off, what makes you think anyone is "forced" to live in poverty or that anyone would support a system that "forced" poverty on anyone? How is giving someone welfare and preventing them from gaining the education or experience that will lead them out of poverty not "forcing" poverty on them? How is lowering my standard of living to improve the standard of living of people who refuse to help themselves not "forcing" poverty on me?

By the way your example is an awful one because 5 people could have lived in (relative) luxury for the rest of their lives with 1 year of his salary; and it was his poor decision making that lead him to squander his good fortune and lead to his poverty. This man had opportunities beyond the vast majority of the population to get an excellent education and develop skills and relationships that would provide for him for the rest of his life, and he ends up with nothing because he wasted them.

So, which of the following options do you prefer:

1. People actually do meaningful help to help him out.

2. He stays the way it is, and remains living out of his car the rest of his life.

3. We install life termination booths, and since he screwed up so much, we mercifully kill him, and the rest of the poor, so they don't have to suffer?

The reality is this: People do get breaks and things fail.  They fall between the cracks.  The question is, what of it?  By the way, what bad choices do you know he made?  Can you tell?  Everyone ends up in his situation, because it is entirely his fault?  That is true for EVERYONE?

I guess maybe then my getting a Masters degree in Information Systems was a mistake to.  Well, I guess this video shows why to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V122ICNS8_0

 

By the way, read this shorthand and say WHERE Ray Williams failed:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-sad-tale-of-Ray-Williams-10-year-NBA-vet-no?urn=nba,253262

Can you point to it, or in your universe everyone who fails fails because it is their fault.


We don't have A. B. or C now... so I don't see your point.

We mostly have D.  The government very very inefficiently tries to help him out.

C. by the way is actually more a byproduct of the situation we have now intensifying when lessening. 


A.  Would be best... which is why we should strive for A.

In general people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal are by far the highest donators to charity.

People who love social security and welfare and want more... are less likely to donate money to charity.  It's not hard to figure out why.  When we shift the job to the government... it's a lot easier to ignore the poor and homeless on the streets it's easy to ignore Ray Williams (unless your trying to make a point.)

No changes get made exactly because of the situation we have now.  The situation we have now makes things worse because people stop caring.  There is a lot of great work done by chairty... that works far better then what the government offers. 

Heck, even instead of running itself just bid contracts out for welfare type programs in smaller spread up programs it'd work way more effiecently.

I am actually a personal witness, in my own life, to how bad things are.  I don't see people doing much here to help.  I actually don't even think people have a clue on how to help.  I have, for example, attempted to be involved with multiple employment seeker groups in area, and find they all tend to die off.  One church I went to for this, cancelled their service, for lack of attendance and then spun it as the economy getting better.  It wasn't getting better.  It was just that they people had no idea on how to help people obtain employment.

Anyhow, what I would say here, as I said before, is you won't get change, unless people start caring NOW.  If they don't, it won't change.  What I also see is government attempting to outsource everything.  This mix of private industry and government spending has shown to be a disaster, with the likes of Blackwater and Halliburton.  Blackwater has been responsible for numerous war crime level attrocities that have happened in Iraq and Afghanistan.


A) You act if your the only person that's ever been in such a situation... yet oddly the cases you sited once again work AGAINST your point.

B) Your "proof" is that they die off for lack of attendence.  So... in otherwords the people who need help aren't searching for help to find employment.   Once again, isn't this a cause of... government?   I know plenty of people who'd rather keep collecting unemployment then take a "crappy" job for example.  The problem isn't in the programs... it's that the people who need them aren't seeking them out.   It's just like Medicare.  a LARGE percent of people who don't have health insurance qualify for Medicare.  They just refuse to seek out their options. 

Or hell, i've been out of a job myself and avoided help when I knew I could live off my savings a bit just because it's damn embarrising to go out and seek help.   Those things fail when people feel they have other options or are just ignortant other options are out there.  It's like your argueing that we need medicine that makes people sick... because look how sick they are.

C)  The difference between Blackwater and the regular military is that the government doesn't feel the need to coverup as much for Blackwater.  That's about it.  

Also, paramilitary groups have actually been extremely successful in their application.  Paying private contractors a lot more to deal with threats above and beyond the call of duty for other troops, and being there when we ran out of ways to expand our army. 

D) Halburton gets most of it's work via nobid contracts.  Which shifts the government mindset on to them.  They don't have to give a shit about what they do, because it's no-bid and they're going to keep getting work this way.   Once again, it's the government doing things the wrong way the causes the problem.



HappySqurriel said:
Squilliam said:

I wonder how many people complain because the U.S. government is inefficient. Would the same issues be raised if the people here were from Australia for instance?


I’m from Canada, and while there are areas where our government does a dramatically better job (education), I see the same kinds of incompetence and inefficiency across all levels of government in Canada that plague the United States; and I believe incompetence and inefficiency is a characteristic of all governments.

Consider that when a private organization sees a reduction in income they have an incentive to improve efficiency to maintain the quality of their services in order to prevent their competition from stealing their customers. In contrast, when a public organization sees a reduction in income there is an incentive to become less efficient and to make cuts in the most noticeable way possible so that the funding will get returned. This is why teachers are always the first to lose their job (and often the only people to lose their job) when education funding is cut even though the cost of bureaucracy has been estimated as high as 33% of the cost of education in some systems.


Im from New Zealand and this is how we tend to run a government department. We have politician : appointed head (usually from the private sector) : Organisation as a whole. Many departments have been corportatised, we are one of the few places from what I gather which has a government owned businesses which turn profits comparable to publicly held private entities.

All large entitities have inefficienciencies. Theres a very good reason why companies have been moving away from the (in)corporation model for many years. There is actually very little difference in the potential inefficiency of a corportation which employs >10,000 people and a government department which does the same. The major problems come from when the politicians themselves either micro-manage or force their department to do this which are counter the best interests of running the department efficiently.

BTW from what I have gathered, in the recent history of my country the only cuts to education have come at the expense of management I cannot remember a single case where teachers have been laid off en-masse. At worst there has been a slow down/under-hiring of new teachers.



Tease.

Squilliam said:
HappySqurriel said:
Squilliam said:

I wonder how many people complain because the U.S. government is inefficient. Would the same issues be raised if the people here were from Australia for instance?


I’m from Canada, and while there are areas where our government does a dramatically better job (education), I see the same kinds of incompetence and inefficiency across all levels of government in Canada that plague the United States; and I believe incompetence and inefficiency is a characteristic of all governments.

Consider that when a private organization sees a reduction in income they have an incentive to improve efficiency to maintain the quality of their services in order to prevent their competition from stealing their customers. In contrast, when a public organization sees a reduction in income there is an incentive to become less efficient and to make cuts in the most noticeable way possible so that the funding will get returned. This is why teachers are always the first to lose their job (and often the only people to lose their job) when education funding is cut even though the cost of bureaucracy has been estimated as high as 33% of the cost of education in some systems.


Im from New Zealand and this is how we tend to run a government department. We have politician : appointed head (usually from the private sector) : Organisation as a whole. Many departments have been corportatised, we are one of the few places from what I gather which has a government owned businesses which turn profits comparable to publicly held private entities.

All large entitities have inefficienciencies. Theres a very good reason why companies have been moving away from the (in)corporation model for many years. There is actually very little difference in the potential inefficiency of a corportation which employs >10,000 people and a government department which does the same. The major problems come from when the politicians themselves either micro-manage or force their department to do this which are counter the best interests of running the department efficiently.

BTW from what I have gathered, in the recent history of my country the only cuts to education have come at the expense of management I cannot remember a single case where teachers have been laid off en-masse. At worst there has been a slow down/under-hiring of new teachers.


I wish we worked like that... it'd be a dirty word if our government organizations turned a profit.