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Forums - Sales Discussion - Pacher Explains Why He Predicts WiiHD Believes Will Will Lose MarketShare

Alby_da_Wolf said:

1) Yes, it's the main challenge implied in Nintendo's goal of sustained innovation.

2) Sorry, it's you that are partially wrong. While it's true that a disruptor must have an incumbent, not necessarily the incumbent always has to face a disruptor, disruption happens more or less often, but there are also periods when there aren't disruptors. Incumbents exist when at least one of the players can achieve a market share strong enough and after doing it it relaxes on conservative habits. The incumbent Christensen describes is not the only possible one, it's the particular incumbent that has those peculiarities and typical behaviours when the incumbent vs disruptor game is on or is going to start. It's also true that market leaders becoming incumbent are indeed preparing the market to be disrupted, but there's not a strict rule that says how long the incumbent can enjoy its power before disruption rises and hits (otherwise disruption could be pre-empted).

1) I'm not sure I get what you meant. Sustained innovation is a challenge for Nintendo, right?

2) What you describied isn't an incumbent, it's merely a company that overshoots it's customer, thus creating conditions for disruption, but incumbent (hence original meaning of the word in latin) born when there's a disruptor and vice-versa. In other words, when company aware of a competitive company (though may underestimate it), it acts accordingly (fight or flight), thus became incumbent merely due to it's behaviour/business decisions. In layman's terms, you can't define black without white and vice-versa. Back to initial point - Nintendo isn't an incumbent right now. You probably misused the term, rightfully implying  that there're some threats to Nintendo as a business.



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Alby_da_Wolf said:
Smashchu2 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Metallicube said:

The Move has a CHANCE to be successful, but it's going to come down the the games released. Those people who are just looking at the Move and saying "well.. Wii has motion controls and IT'S successful, now PS3 does, so that means IT will now be successful!!1" don't understand the true roots of Wii's success..


I'm not a Sony hater by any means, but IMVHO MS and Sony's motion controls for this gen are just to stop falling behind Nintendo and let themselves and 3rd parties start grasping the concepts and their practical applications ASAP. They can't harm PS3 and XB360, they can even benefit them, but it's too late to fill the gap from Wii.

About 3D with glasses I totally agree: I won't ever spend a cent on it. When 3D TV will be made WITHOUT any gadget to wear to watch it, I'll start considering it.

BTW parallax barrier 3D screens too, despite being glasses-free, are not very practical for multiple users, as 3D effect is enjoyable only at a limited distance interval from an ideal point, so it's not a tech living room-ready.

They can't eh?

As disruptive attackers follow their own sustaining trajectories, they make inroads into the low end of the market or begin pulling less demanding customers into a new context of use. What happens when the disruptive entrant begins to make inroads? A good way to visualize what incumbents can do when faced with a disruptive attack is to consider how humans respond to a perceived threat. Our body immediately reacts. We produce adrenaline. Our heart rate goes up. Our respiration rate goes up. Blood flow redirects from nonessential areas to critical areas. Our body is prepared for one of two actions: fight or flight.

Fight? That's sounds like Sony and Microsoft releasing motion controls.

Now, hear Reggie

They will see our results, and they'll see how much of a challenge and dogfight this new era of gaming will be

Now, what is disruption. Here is what happens (remember, Nintendo is disrupting the industry with motion controls)

-First is the ‘aggressive growth’ phase by the disruptor. Second is the ‘counterattack’ by the incumbents. Third is the fallout from the counterattack. Most of the time, the counterattack is unsuccessful and the incumbents are made *gone*.

Counter attack. Like making their own motion controllers. Sound familiar.

Don't doubt it. Nintendo's aim is to make Sony and Microsoft gone.

They can't harm, meaning that although they cannot reverse the situation, they are an addition to PS3 and XB360 capabilities, in the worst case they'll add a few games and a few users.

That appears as a counterattack, but is it? Isn't it too late this gen? Wii already won it. Sony and MS cannot ignore it, so this gen they may now look aggressive, but maybe their main goals are to just stop falling behind and prepare for next gen.

The other choice for Sony and MS would be to flee, yes, but does it make sense?

Obviously Nintendo will have something new besides motion control for next gen, but motion control is the real first big thing appeared in gaming during the last decade, for MS and Sony developing their versions is an unescapable choice.

And, I'll write it again: next gen nothing can grant Nintendo will be able to release something with the same disruptive potential of Wii, surrendering to Wii2/Zii/Whatever without fighting and before even knowing what it will be and whether it will be successful or not doesn't make sense at all, it's just the wet dream of Sony and MS haters. And maybe of Steve Jobs.   

BTW the incumbent is Nintendo, now.

You do not understand disruption.

Nintendo is not the incumbent. The incumbent is the market leaders of sustaining innovations. They control the market. The disruptor is the one with the disruptive innovation who plans to cut up market and take over the makret. Nintendo's goal, as a disruptor, is to make Sony and Microsoft gone.

Nintendo can very well hurt the HD twins by taking away customers from Sony and Microsoft. Motion Plus was announced before Microsoft's conferese. Reggie talking a lot about attacking at E3 09. Zelda will be a key to moving upmarket. But ask yourself: Why are Sony and Microsoft making motion controls. They had no interest in the new market before, what makes you think they want to make inroads now. They really don't, but they have to stop Nintendo or Nintendo will take over their market. Heck, Speilberg's speach at E3 09 during Microsoft's conference was ver batem, the same as Reggie's in 06.

In other words, Nintendo is making the Wii remote better and making more indepth games which will take customers some Sony and Microsoft. These customers don't like the standard Wii Remote, but they may like motion plus as it is better, and closer to their demand (the higher the tier, the more demanding the consumer). Nintendo will make deeper games based on the new values (feel over sight) and will make inroads upstream.

And, I'll write it again: next gen nothing can grant Nintendo will be able to release something with the same disruptive potential of Wii, surrendering to Wii2/Zii/Whatever without fighting and before even knowing what it will be and whether it will be successful or not doesn't make sense at all, it's just the wet dream of Sony and MS haters. And maybe of Steve Jobs.

This paragraph makes no sesne. You never say why Nintendo can not release a disruptive console again. Why can't they? Why would they make a Wii 2? It makes no sense and you never say why.

Remember this: So long as Nintendo is disrupting, the end result will be the same and Sony and Microsoft will be made gone. This is why they have motion controls. To fight Nintendo. But usually, it is the disruptor (Nintendo) who will win. E3 2010 is the turning point of the industry. Either they stop Nintendo now or Nintendo will goar them.

So Alby has no idea of what he is talking about, but mai gets it. He has been right so far.



The important point Pachter is making is that the Wii is unable to address the entirety of the market. Thats the significant point right there which has prevented the Wii from aquiring > 50% of the market. So whilst it was able to serve many of the underserved/unserved non consumers of the market it failed to address the needs of the entirety of the market and at that it failed to serve the majority of the existing gaming market either if you consider the fact that a proportion of the current Wii userbase is new to gaming.

 



Tease.

Squilliam said:

The important point Pachter is making is that the Wii is unable to address the entirety of the market. Thats the significant point right there which has prevented the Wii from aquiring > 50% of the market. So whilst it was able to serve many of the underserved/unserved non consumers of the market it failed to address the needs of the entirety of the market and at that it failed to serve the majority of the existing gaming market either if you consider the fact that a proportion of the current Wii userbase is new to gaming.

 

True, as has been mentioned above they're likely to target this portion of the market next gen. At least I believe so.

There're not much choice though, either you move up or down on consumer pyramid (or fight against non-consumers). Some known essential characteristics of Nintendo business model will pervent them from moving really down (especially competing with such extremes as free or very, very cheap games like found in AppStore), so their expansion is to move upmarket.



mai said:

[...]

1) I'm not sure I get what you meant. Sustained innovation is a challenge for Nintendo, right?

2) What you describied isn't an incumbent, it's merely a company that overshoots it's customer, thus creating conditions for disruption, but incumbent (hence original meaning of the word in latin) born when there's a disruptor and vice-versa. In other words, when company aware of a competitive company (though may underestimate it), it acts accordingly (fight or flight), thus became incumbent merely due to it's behaviour/business decisions. In layman's terms, you can't define black without white and vice-versa. Back to initial point - Nintendo isn't an incumbent right now. You probably misused the term, rightfully implying  that there're some threats to Nintendo as a business.

 

1) Not sustaining innovation, that's totally feasible, the challenge is living up to Wii's might too. It's analogous to Sony trying to live up to PS2 with PS3, like it did successfully from PSOne to PS2, failing (although in PSOne -> PS2 -> PS3 case the scenario was evolutive, not disruptive) or like MS trying to repeat XP success with Vista (OK, we are both sure Nintendo will do a lot better with Zii than MS with Vista, and that, unlike Sony, it will keep costs under control, the analogy is only in PS2, XP and Wii's immense success and reputation).

2) The incumbent may cause the rise of a disruptor, but is not defined by it, while OTOH the disruptor rise when the incumbent exists. The concept of incumbent was already defined before Christrensen's theories and is used also in antitrust issues, for example. And the incumbent doesn't become so when it acknowledges the beginning of a disruptor's rise, it becomes so before, as you said also just reacting to competitors, that aren't necessarily disruptors. Incumbent's concept is wider than the particular meaning Christensen uses. Nintendo currently is still disruptive with 3DS and its portable market strategies, but has become more conservative in the home console market: yes I'm exaggerating saying it has already switched from simple leader to incumbent, but the risk is there, Nintendo already switched to incumbent behaviour in the past, before becoming again disruptive with DS and Wii.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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Garnett said:
Games4Fun said:
Garnett said:
Games4Fun said:
Garnett said:
lapsed_gamer said:
Garnett said:
Viper1 said:
Garnett said:
TheSource said:

When I argue about this with him, I just remind him that Nintendo is likely to announce the Wii successor for late 2011 / late 2012 to kill off any momentum Move might be building.

The fact of the matter is a Wii HD starts with a base of "0 Users" as does the PS3 Move base. So an HD Wii is 75-80m behind X360/PS3 if it releases in 2010, and the PS3 base for Move is going to be 75-80m behind Wii when it launches this year


By the time the Wii HD does come out, the PS3 would of already done everything the Wii HD does. (It only does everything!!!)

HD console = PS3

HD format = PS3

Good online service = PS3

Motion controls = PS3

The PS3 MOVE user base may start from Zero but remember, its gonna have a 2-3 year head start, and in 2-3 years the PS3 may be at 50 million plus, so  Move will be accessable to those 50 million current PS3 owners, and all for $100 or less. Compared to the Wii HD which will probably launch at $200-300 and without a decent online service and Blue Ray.

Nintendo is gonna have a problem if Sony decides to Bundle it with EVERY ps3, for one price.

Did you buy your crsytal ball from the same shady street vendor that Pacther did?

It's good to know that someone already knows the price, the online service and game medium for a console that Nintendo says is not even under consideration.

Chances are Nintendo wont improve the online, because most of their customers dont care about online.

Why would the Wii HD, an Updated version of the Current gen Wii be cheaper? Its going to be more expensive.

As for the Media format,Nintendo goes with their own formats.


So... first Nintendo is in trouble because the PS3 has all these features, then Nintendo knows its audience so well that they won't bother. Which do you believe?

I never said Nintend is in trouble, nor the Wii. I am talking about their next system.

Online gaming may not be big now, but its gonna expand.

If the PS3 with motion controls does everything the Wii HD does then why buy the Wii HDD

Same reason most people buy a Nintendo console. Nintendo made games.


Believe it or not thats not why the Wii is where it is.

The Wii is HUGE because

1. They market to non gamers

2. Motion control are supposed to make gaming more fun

3. Wii games are more simple and easier to win ( at least Wii sports is)

 

Mario didnt sell the Wii, nor Zelda, but the casual simple games.

Agreed on the 2. But I never said Mario or Zelda I said Nintendo made games which are by far the biggest sales of the more relaxed simple to play games.


You mean Nintendo made gaming big? or do you mean Nintendo makes the best selling "casual" games?

Casual games as you say.



Smashchu2 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Smashchu2 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Metallicube said:

The Move has a CHANCE to be successful, but it's going to come down the the games released. Those people who are just looking at the Move and saying "well.. Wii has motion controls and IT'S successful, now PS3 does, so that means IT will now be successful!!1" don't understand the true roots of Wii's success..


I'm not a Sony hater by any means, but IMVHO MS and Sony's motion controls for this gen are just to stop falling behind Nintendo and let themselves and 3rd parties start grasping the concepts and their practical applications ASAP. They can't harm PS3 and XB360, they can even benefit them, but it's too late to fill the gap from Wii.

About 3D with glasses I totally agree: I won't ever spend a cent on it. When 3D TV will be made WITHOUT any gadget to wear to watch it, I'll start considering it.

BTW parallax barrier 3D screens too, despite being glasses-free, are not very practical for multiple users, as 3D effect is enjoyable only at a limited distance interval from an ideal point, so it's not a tech living room-ready.

They can't eh?

As disruptive attackers follow their own sustaining trajectories, they make inroads into the low end of the market or begin pulling less demanding customers into a new context of use. What happens when the disruptive entrant begins to make inroads? A good way to visualize what incumbents can do when faced with a disruptive attack is to consider how humans respond to a perceived threat. Our body immediately reacts. We produce adrenaline. Our heart rate goes up. Our respiration rate goes up. Blood flow redirects from nonessential areas to critical areas. Our body is prepared for one of two actions: fight or flight.

Fight? That's sounds like Sony and Microsoft releasing motion controls.

Now, hear Reggie

They will see our results, and they'll see how much of a challenge and dogfight this new era of gaming will be

Now, what is disruption. Here is what happens (remember, Nintendo is disrupting the industry with motion controls)

-First is the ‘aggressive growth’ phase by the disruptor. Second is the ‘counterattack’ by the incumbents. Third is the fallout from the counterattack. Most of the time, the counterattack is unsuccessful and the incumbents are made *gone*.

Counter attack. Like making their own motion controllers. Sound familiar.

Don't doubt it. Nintendo's aim is to make Sony and Microsoft gone.

They can't harm, meaning that although they cannot reverse the situation, they are an addition to PS3 and XB360 capabilities, in the worst case they'll add a few games and a few users.

That appears as a counterattack, but is it? Isn't it too late this gen? Wii already won it. Sony and MS cannot ignore it, so this gen they may now look aggressive, but maybe their main goals are to just stop falling behind and prepare for next gen.

The other choice for Sony and MS would be to flee, yes, but does it make sense?

Obviously Nintendo will have something new besides motion control for next gen, but motion control is the real first big thing appeared in gaming during the last decade, for MS and Sony developing their versions is an unescapable choice.

And, I'll write it again: next gen nothing can grant Nintendo will be able to release something with the same disruptive potential of Wii, surrendering to Wii2/Zii/Whatever without fighting and before even knowing what it will be and whether it will be successful or not doesn't make sense at all, it's just the wet dream of Sony and MS haters. And maybe of Steve Jobs.   

BTW the incumbent is Nintendo, now.

You do not understand disruption.

Nintendo is not the incumbent. The incumbent is the market leaders of sustaining innovations. They control the market. The disruptor is the one with the disruptive innovation who plans to cut up market and take over the makret. Nintendo's goal, as a disruptor, is to make Sony and Microsoft gone.

Nintendo can very well hurt the HD twins by taking away customers from Sony and Microsoft. Motion Plus was announced before Microsoft's conferese. Reggie talking a lot about attacking at E3 09. Zelda will be a key to moving upmarket. But ask yourself: Why are Sony and Microsoft making motion controls. They had no interest in the new market before, what makes you think they want to make inroads now. They really don't, but they have to stop Nintendo or Nintendo will take over their market. Heck, Speilberg's speach at E3 09 during Microsoft's conference was ver batem, the same as Reggie's in 06.

In other words, Nintendo is making the Wii remote better and making more indepth games which will take customers some Sony and Microsoft. These customers don't like the standard Wii Remote, but they may like motion plus as it is better, and closer to their demand (the higher the tier, the more demanding the consumer). Nintendo will make deeper games based on the new values (feel over sight) and will make inroads upstream.

And, I'll write it again: next gen nothing can grant Nintendo will be able to release something with the same disruptive potential of Wii, surrendering to Wii2/Zii/Whatever without fighting and before even knowing what it will be and whether it will be successful or not doesn't make sense at all, it's just the wet dream of Sony and MS haters. And maybe of Steve Jobs.

This paragraph makes no sesne. You never say why Nintendo can not release a disruptive console again. Why can't they? Why would they make a Wii 2? It makes no sense and you never say why.

Remember this: So long as Nintendo is disrupting, the end result will be the same and Sony and Microsoft will be made gone. This is why they have motion controls. To fight Nintendo. But usually, it is the disruptor (Nintendo) who will win. E3 2010 is the turning point of the industry. Either they stop Nintendo now or Nintendo will goar them.

So Alby has no idea of what he is talking about, but mai gets it. He has been right so far.

Not.

I understand disruption, but I don't adore it like a divinity.

And I must not prove Nintendo won't be disruptive a second time in a row because I just didn't state that, can't you read? I just wrote that nothing can grant it, it's quite different. Giving to my words a wrong meaning to prove your point proves yourself wrong, not me.

Usually the disruptor wins. Usually doesn't equal unerringly. And even this high likelyhood needs the disruptor to keep on devising and following the right strategies (and developing and releasing the right products!) to be achieved.

So there are still a lot of doubts. And E3 2010 will remove a lot of them, but not them all.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


mai said:
Squilliam said:

The important point Pachter is making is that the Wii is unable to address the entirety of the market. Thats the significant point right there which has prevented the Wii from aquiring > 50% of the market. So whilst it was able to serve many of the underserved/unserved non consumers of the market it failed to address the needs of the entirety of the market and at that it failed to serve the majority of the existing gaming market either if you consider the fact that a proportion of the current Wii userbase is new to gaming.

 

True, as has been mentioned above they're likely to target this portion of the market next gen. At least I believe so.

There're not much choice though, either you move up or down on consumer pyramid (or fight against non-consumers). Some known essential characteristics of Nintendo business model will pervent them from moving really down (especially competing with such extremes as free or very, very cheap games like found in AppStore), so their expansion is to move upmarket.


I don't believe theres any reason why they cannot move in both directions at once with the next generation of consoles. The important point that has to be stated is that they key component to moving in either direction is providing value and cutting the price is only one tool to do that.

Their next console can easily move in both directions at once. They just need to do roughly three relatively obvious things to do so.

1. Increased performance to levels in line with the market expectations. This shouldn't be too hard as they can use off the shelf Fusion parts from AMD for instance which will offer both lower power and higher performance charactaristics which ought to ensure that they can get the full range of current and future generation software from third parties.

2. Further refinements of the key interface technologies. Anything which makes the Wii easier to use or more intuitive or enables improved gameplay possibilities.

3. Embrace the possibilities of the download market, internet, streaming and take a leaf out of Apples book and implement not only a game store but an application store as well. Im sure there would be far fewer hacking attempts if they simply let people make applications for their consoles without resorting to hacking.

Essentially they need to iterate further on basic computing technologies, innovate key improvements in keeping their control system a step ahead of the competition and expand by vastly increasing the possibilities of their system. In a closed console world, openness in itself is once again disruption. I wonder if they dare embrace it?



Tease.

JMan said:
Garnett said:
JMan said:
Garnett said:


Nintendo wasn't hardcore last gen, they were the same as they are now, its just now they got motion controls.

Casual games wont outsell hardcore games, but casual games with motion controls will.


I don't buy that.  Iwata became the CEO in 2002, long after the gamecube established its failure to gain a large market share (although it was still a profitable venture).  It was Iwata that implemented the Blue Ocean strategy, starting with the DS games.  He mentions this strategy in the Tokyo Game show in 2005 and how they started this with Nintendogs and Brain Age, both which had been recently released and showed great potential already.  He wanted to appeal to an expanded audience by innovating something new that would appeal to more than just trying to be the best graphics.  Then he unveiled the Revolution.

As for "Casual games won't outsell hardcore games" unless they have motion controls I have only this to offer:  Tetris, which has outsold every "hardcore" game there is (even if you just consider gameboy sales and not sales of the same game on all platforms).  With Nintendogs and Brain Age also close, no -- it isn't just about motion controls.  It's about finding the thing that appeals to a broader audience. 

edit:  I will grant that the Nintendo development did games that were 'cartoony', but they were very specifically targetted at gamers whereas games like "Nintendogs", "Wii Sports", "Brain Age", are most definitely not targetted at the same group as Super Mario Sunshine.  Prior to the Blue Ocean strategy, you find few games like those.

1. Gamecube was a flop, because too many casual games and it was the "kitty console", while Xbox was huge and blunky, they flopped while the PS2 was the cool thing back then.

2. Tetris is a arcade game, just like spade is a arcade game, those types of games dont count.

If you want to believe that it is exclusively motion controls added to casual games that make casual games outsell hardcore, that's your choice.  The fact that Tetris, Nintendogs and Brain Age outselling most hardcore despite not having motion controls can all be excluded from your belief by creating whatever rules you want to exclude them.  It doesn't change the fact that casual games CAN outsell hardcore without motion controls.  But that's irrelevant to the topic anyway.

Nintendo's blue ocean strategy wasn't just motion controls.  The motion controls were just one of the outcomes of that strategy, but it isn't the only part.  Their marketing direction changed, their design philosophy changed.  You say they are identical to the Nintendo that created the GC with the exception of motion controls, but that is definitely not true.  From what Patcher said, he thought Nintendo needed an HD because that's just the next logical step (for a Nintendo of the GC era to compete with Sony and Microsoft).  But that's not the new Nintendo, and Patcher is failing to understand that. 

Tetris  a damn card game, DS has touch screen, which is what sells the DS, not Nintendogs nor Imagen babiez.

Nintendo WILL Release a Wii HD eventually, it may not come out for another 4-5 years but its coming. Its would be stupid for Nintendo to abandon the Wii name, which is the best selling Nintendo console EVER. They are gonna name it the Wii HD and there gonna sell it, so that casuals and hardcores can buy it.



Garnett said:
JMan said:
Garnett said:
JMan said:
Garnett said:


Nintendo wasn't hardcore last gen, they were the same as they are now, its just now they got motion controls.

Casual games wont outsell hardcore games, but casual games with motion controls will.


I don't buy that.  Iwata became the CEO in 2002, long after the gamecube established its failure to gain a large market share (although it was still a profitable venture).  It was Iwata that implemented the Blue Ocean strategy, starting with the DS games.  He mentions this strategy in the Tokyo Game show in 2005 and how they started this with Nintendogs and Brain Age, both which had been recently released and showed great potential already.  He wanted to appeal to an expanded audience by innovating something new that would appeal to more than just trying to be the best graphics.  Then he unveiled the Revolution.

As for "Casual games won't outsell hardcore games" unless they have motion controls I have only this to offer:  Tetris, which has outsold every "hardcore" game there is (even if you just consider gameboy sales and not sales of the same game on all platforms).  With Nintendogs and Brain Age also close, no -- it isn't just about motion controls.  It's about finding the thing that appeals to a broader audience. 

edit:  I will grant that the Nintendo development did games that were 'cartoony', but they were very specifically targetted at gamers whereas games like "Nintendogs", "Wii Sports", "Brain Age", are most definitely not targetted at the same group as Super Mario Sunshine.  Prior to the Blue Ocean strategy, you find few games like those.

1. Gamecube was a flop, because too many casual games and it was the "kitty console", while Xbox was huge and blunky, they flopped while the PS2 was the cool thing back then.

2. Tetris is a arcade game, just like spade is a arcade game, those types of games dont count.

If you want to believe that it is exclusively motion controls added to casual games that make casual games outsell hardcore, that's your choice.  The fact that Tetris, Nintendogs and Brain Age outselling most hardcore despite not having motion controls can all be excluded from your belief by creating whatever rules you want to exclude them.  It doesn't change the fact that casual games CAN outsell hardcore without motion controls.  But that's irrelevant to the topic anyway.

Nintendo's blue ocean strategy wasn't just motion controls.  The motion controls were just one of the outcomes of that strategy, but it isn't the only part.  Their marketing direction changed, their design philosophy changed.  You say they are identical to the Nintendo that created the GC with the exception of motion controls, but that is definitely not true.  From what Patcher said, he thought Nintendo needed an HD because that's just the next logical step (for a Nintendo of the GC era to compete with Sony and Microsoft).  But that's not the new Nintendo, and Patcher is failing to understand that. 

Tetris  a damn card game, DS has touch screen, which is what sells the DS, not Nintendogs nor Imagen babiez.

Nintendo WILL Release a Wii HD eventually, it may not come out for another 4-5 years but its coming. Its would be stupid for Nintendo to abandon the Wii name, which is the best selling Nintendo console EVER. They are gonna name it the Wii HD and there gonna sell it, so that casuals and hardcores can buy it.

Tetris, A card game?  Ok, sure.  I remember tetris as a block game, but continue to build your fantasy.  Anyway, your statement was that casual games don't outsell hardcore, only with motion controls do they and if you look up the sales figures on Nintendogs, Brain Age, and Tetris, I think you'll find exceptions to your absolute rule.

I did not say Nintendo would never release a Wii HD, nor abandon the Wii name.  Patcher kept predicting the Wii within a year or two, and that's been for a long time that he's been predicting it.  Nintendo has flatly stated that they haven't even opened all of the doors on the Wii and they won't be releasing a new console until they can no longer write the games they want to write.  When the technology can no longer cover their requirements, they'll go with a new console.  HD is not yet a requirement for Nintendo to build outstanding games.