What about it?  One game out of more than 60 Final Fantasy games doesn't change the series focus.  And even the creators stated the emphasis of FFXIII was on the storyline and 'cinematic feel' just like previous games.  Just because it might have better gameplay than its predecessors, doesn't mean it was the focus.  Remember, FFVIII and X also had better focus on the gameplay, but the story and graphics still took front seat.

Now I just realised The thing I hate the most about RPGs:

It is not the combat system but the leveling up, which requires to spend a lot of time at the game making you think that you are making progress, when all you are doing is doing some useless things to level up! And THAT explains why MY most hated genre of all time is MMO, which is just a f***ing useless waste of time!

Well cause my idea of that you should get skilled at something NOT just spend redicilous amount of time on it to get good!

Yes, in a way it is the same thing, to get skill you also need to spend a lot of time, but you ARE actually making proress, while leveling up is making you THINK that you are getting better, when you actually are NOT!

Exactly. Even if you want challenge, the game can give you a challenge if you play the game a certain way (ie. 4 white mage playthrough in FF1 or low level speed runs). One of the main reasons why I like RPG grinding in the first place is that it offers you almost infinite difficulty setting customization. Did you just die in a dungeon? Is that dungeon pissing you off? Grind a bit more and try again. Is the game too easy? Don't grind at all and if that's not good enough, start running away from some battles too.

I can understand how gamers can think that a game is too hard because not every game allows you to grind until the game is easy or has an easy setting. But mostly every game out there can be challenging if you decided to give yourself a challenge (why does the onus have to be on the game developer to make the game hard? For mostly every game out there, it's possible to give yourself a challenge).

This reminds me of the time I played Blue Dragon. I selected the Normal Mode after I was warned online that Normal Mode is easy and you should go with Hard. I figured they were underestating the game's difficulty because you know how gamers are online right? They love to talk about they beat so and so game so easily to show off their e-peen right? So I just went with Normal. Then when I go through playing the game, I find that the game is not challenging me that much (the only time I died was due to carelessness) as I was warned online. But I didn't complain. Why? Because I could have easily made the game harder if I played it differently. First of all, I played it on normal. Second of all, I went out of my way to find the higher-level magic spells that were scattered throughout the world to prepare myself for the final dungeon (I didn't want to be stuck in a rut where I was unprepared and there was no turning back. You know, the whole point of no return thing in jrpgs). And in the process of doing that, I ended up bumping into a lot of enemies (and I didn't run away because I figured that the extra experience and skill points would be helpful). Which in turn led to my levels and skill levels going up. Well it turned out this was over-preparation. And my level balooned from level 34 to level 52. The game could have been beaten at lower levels with lower skill levels. Is the game designer at fault for that? No. Sakaguchi-san didn't put a gun to my head saying, "you must get those uber Fire-All and Cure-All spells (or whatever they're called)!" You can't fault the game designer for the game being easy when you consciously made the decision not to challenge yourself more than you could.

This is why I feel it's unfair when people complain that Blue Dragon is too easy. If they want a challenge, they can go download free DLC (unless they don't have broadband internet) that will give them more difficulty options (which they can access right away, no having to beat the game on Normal first kind of deal) and choose Hard Mode. Or they could limit the amount of fighting they do on Normal Mode.

i don't really get what you are saying , if the games had a focus on storyline then the gameplay will be automatically crap? , did you even play any Final Fantasy game or you are just taking what you read too literary

Final Fantasy games had always had a focus on gameplay and each was different from the other, why do you think people talk about the battle system?

You're the one who isn't reading what I'm saying.  I previously said FFVIII and X had more emphasis on gameplay than other FF games (highlighted and underlined).  But even with that, the story and graphics had even more focus.  You can see it when you compare the amount of time you spend interacting with characters and how much dialogue is in the game.  And the creators of the series even emphasized this.  Its been the foundation of the series ever since its conception with Hironobu Sakaguchi and on down the line with its core development groups.  Most notably, Yoshinori Kitase, the series current lead producer and the main overseer for Final Fantasy FFVII, VIII, X and XIII.  Both Sakaguchi and Kitase have focused on setting Final Fantasy apart as being a series focusing on heavy storylines with 'cinematic feel'.  As should be plainly evident with the path the series has taken in both presentation and design.

And its not like its a bad thing.  Its what sets the series apart and made it popular.  But the point is, from the first game on, gameplay wasn't the focus.  To quote Sakaguchi himself, 'Telling a story' was.

'Final Fantasy was developed during Square's brush with bankruptcy in 1987, and in a display of gallows humor, director Hironobu Sakaguchi declared that his "final" game would be a "fantasy" role-playing game; hence the title. When Sakaguchi was asked what type of game he wanted to make, he replied "I don't think I have what it takes to make a good action game. I think I'm better at telling a story."'

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_%28video_game%29#Development

i really really don't get what you are trying to do here, so if a game is very cinematic its automatically loses gameplay? why can't a game have both? besides if you know Sakaguchi , he never worked on the gameplay part hes a director not a developer, he writes the story, also Action games =/= RPGs , you call Oblivion an Action Game?

so by your logic here Mario 64 wasn't a graphical achievement because Miyamoto foced on gameplay

and also by your logic Halo is an online only game because they focus on online gaming.

Bottom line Final Fantasy always had the gameplay as one of the main focuses , you know developer teams are.... teams right? its not like sakagushi made final fantasy by himself

Actually, its just you who's taking my points and turning it into an 'either or' extreme.  I laid it out quite clearly, that the games had a progression in gameplay, but that story was the focus.  And, as I've said multiple times, just because the story was the focus, doesn't mean the gameplay was bad.  It just means the story was the focus.

Stop taking that as me saying the gameplay is 'crap'.  Focus is not another word for bad.  Using your own analogy, games like Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy didn't have crappy graphics just because the gameplay was the focus.  Nowhere did I say that, or even imply it.

And I'm going to say it one more time, the emphasis on the story and 'cinematic feel' is what makes Final Fantasy stand apart.  Most notably, from Dragon Quest, which came out before Final Fantasy.  Its this emhpasis of style and focus on story that has made the series famous.  And which they still push today.

I think both Severance and Kenryoku_Maxis are wrong.

Severance seems to be misunderstanding KM.  KM isn't saying that Final Fantasy games are bad due to weak gameplay, he's just saying that the creators aren't focusing on the gameplay.   Basically Severance is thinking "He's saying A which means B to me but I don't like B so boo him" when KM isn't saying B at all.

That said, I think KM is overstating his point.  Specifically, I don't like this quote:

"there's just the undeniable fact that the vast majority of Final Fantasy games do not require much in the way of planning and tactics"

Most every Final-Fantasy game I've played has required a bit of planning.  In Final-Fantasy 1, I planned my team (F/BM/RM/WM), planned the spells they would each take, and chose when to use them in battle.  A lot of fights simply would not have been won without having the right spells and using them wisely.  In Final Fantasy 7, there is a great deal of planning that can go into materia selection which, prior to getting Knights of the Rournd which you only get at the end from an obscure quest, largely impacts the challenge.  In Final Fantasy 8, there's a huge amount of planning in choosing Guardian Force abilities and who to junction them to as well as what magic to add to what. 

As for tactics being lacking, I would partially agree with that.  You generally know how you're going to fight a battle when you go into it.  You're going to use that materia, summon that GF, use that limit break, etc.  There are very few instances where you will have to radically shift strategies mid-battle (in fact none I can recall atm).

Now, what is common in a lot of Final Fantasy games is grinding.  Grinding can eliminate the need for planning.  Outside of certain enemies in the various games, there is very little you cannot overcome by being 25 levels higher than the game expects and mashing the attack command.  That said, I don't think the ability to grind to infinity and beyond should be held against it.  It's almost like using a strategy guide on a game and then complaining about the difficulty in that you're giving yourself an advantage by doing certain optional things the developer allows.

@the person who said you cannot grind in Fire Emblem:  Certain FE games have something called an Arena which lets you fight unlimited battles as long as you have the time/resources to continue.

Gameplay isn't the only thing that makes a game good. Which is why I find the FPS genre pretty lackluster.

/thread