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Forums - Gaming - Why does game storytelling have such low standards? [MGS4, HL2, etc.]

richardhutnik said:
thelifatree said:
A really high percentage of movies have a bad story. Such as avatar, overly simple, incredibley stereotyped and it's the highest grosisng movie ever.

On top of what I wrote before, taking what you said is true, movies also have an additional revenue stream that videogames lack, which is the movie theater.  Before a movie hits home, it stands a chance to recover its development costs and make a profit.  Games don't have this, and will suffer greatly if they can't keep their costs down to come into being.  And also, factor in what normally goes into stories, that being they are linear and far more under the control of the storyteller.  Unless a game shows it has an ability to be replayable, then all that effort to tell a story through a game will result in a product that will hit the used area, and undermine sales.  If the videogame industry then tries to counter this by blocking people from unloading once through story-drive experience titles, then look for that part of the videogame industry to dry up, and studios that make these games to fold.  No way can the industry survive on play through once and require people to pay over $60 for a game.

Well I know I'm not a factor but for exampel me and my friends replay Final Fantasyies and Vagrant stories... for example. I never replay games like God of War or Games like that because it because to easy.

If a game has interesting rambling I'll play it again.


Linear is not bad... Like to some people it is. But my favorite games this Generation. Dead Space, Mario, FF, Fallout (well not that) bioshock are all linear. Hell ME2 is linear

Linearity lowers the costs for the developers, sandbox games are not cheap



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Xxain said:
thelifatree said:
Xxain said:
richardhutnik said:
Mirson said:

So there you have it. Seven games, all of which I've seen receive accolades for storytelling, but only four of which deserve it. What about you? What games have taken an unrelenting crap on your cake?

---------------

Read more here: http://www.gamecritics.com/richard-naik/why-does-game-storytelling-have-such-low-standards

What REALLY irritates me is that people expect game, which is an interactive form of entertainment, to morph itself into a device for telling stories, and expecting it to be EASY.  It isn't easy.  Games aren't intended to be devices to tell stories, and that isn't there point.  Oh, they CAN be used like that, but the benchmark for a great game is NOT that it has a great story.  The benchmark is how well it plays.  A game scores points if it can tell a story.  But, I will assure you the videogame industry is going to bankrupt itself if it feels it HAS to compete with Hollywood, TV and the book industry, to be a medium for telling the best stories.  It will not only drive up its current costs, but throw into it the entire array of what is needed to make a movie work, and add that to it.  Soon, the arms race to make storytelling the TOP element, will cause games to average a cost of $100+ million to make.

Anyone here think the videogame industry will survive if perceived demands of what is needed to make a game that sells, drives the costs to $100+ million?  The surest way is to cause the videogame industry to fold is to require it get into the movie making business, and have costs to match.  But if you don't push for the top voice talent, director and so on, expect then the production value to be less. 

This being said, a reason why you get bad stories is that the talent isn't there to use the medium to actually TELL a story.  People don't have the skills, so you get the likes of Kojima producing what FEELS like a blockbuster, but is a mess in regards to the actual story, with memorable points that don't fit togeter as a whole.


Great Great Great!.... I agree with this, Video Games are meant to played and NOT waxthed, this gen has been especially bad with Story for some reason becoming more important than the actual game, and its ridiculous. This is wh developers should focus on creating engaging over the over bloated, overrated Epic stor.

Disagree, PS1 had them, did you play xenogears... 45 minute cutscenes.. its just instead of watching pretty things like in metal gear. You watched pressing x button.

Plus I agree 45 minute cutscenes are too long


im not sure what your debating? im not denying that past gens didnt have them its just this gen its been a priority focus. Xenogears is fantastic in storyline but look at the effect it hand on the game. Xxtreamely linear and controlled

well wahts the problem with linearity? linearity=/=devil is my point. Hell people like Linearity. New Super Mario Brothers is like the highest selling game this gen. THats as linear as you can get.



Am I the only person who liked MGS4 ? :(



you can get away with no story, like mario, but if you are attempting to have a story it needs to be passable. thought there are times when a well told story makes the game less fun to play. Fallout 3 has a well done story with subtle foreshadowing and growth as a character. If you play good, at least, you grow from an innocent thrust into the harsh world and gradually become it's savior. and then you frickin have no choice to be a good character and survive the story you die a hero, despite have the good guy exclusive mutant who is immune to radiation is with you. they were so excited to tell their story that they robbed you of a logical course of action to shoehorn you into it. If i were watching a movie with the orginal pre-dlc hero ending of Fallout 3 it would be a touching moment. When playing it , i feel cheated

 

edit: i am aware of the morally ambigious move to let the botherhood chick go in, and die. My point is that you cannot be a good guy in the game and survive unless you have the exra content. I played it when it was fresh, and i had no options at that time. be a jerk or die when there should have been a way around it.



"But as always, technology refused to be dignity's bitch."--Vance DeGeneres

 

http://cheezburger.com/danatblair/lolz/View/4772264960

Random Canadian said:
Am I the only person who liked MGS4 ? :(

No I loved, it it's my 2nd favorite game this generation. The story was just dissapointing for me. If it wasn't for you that's I don't want you to dissapointed. This is just our opinions :P  And I got this topic off topic. I'm sorry



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thelifatree said:
richardhutnik said:
thelifatree said:
A really high percentage of movies have a bad story. Such as avatar, overly simple, incredibley stereotyped and it's the highest grosisng movie ever.

On top of what I wrote before, taking what you said is true, movies also have an additional revenue stream that videogames lack, which is the movie theater.  Before a movie hits home, it stands a chance to recover its development costs and make a profit.  Games don't have this, and will suffer greatly if they can't keep their costs down to come into being.  And also, factor in what normally goes into stories, that being they are linear and far more under the control of the storyteller.  Unless a game shows it has an ability to be replayable, then all that effort to tell a story through a game will result in a product that will hit the used area, and undermine sales.  If the videogame industry then tries to counter this by blocking people from unloading once through story-drive experience titles, then look for that part of the videogame industry to dry up, and studios that make these games to fold.  No way can the industry survive on play through once and require people to pay over $60 for a game.

Well I know I'm not a factor but for exampel me and my friends replay Final Fantasyies and Vagrant stories... for example. I never replay games like God of War or Games like that because it because to easy.

If a game has interesting rambling I'll play it again.


Linear is not bad... Like to some people it is. But my favorite games this Generation. Dead Space, Mario, FF, Fallout (well not that) bioshock are all linear. Hell ME2 is linear

Linearity lowers the costs for the developers, sandbox games are not cheap

There is an issue when you design a game being replayable, UNLESS it is a sandbox/dynamic world (like Civ, or Elite), where you have to create every aspect of the game, and the responses from the characters.  And then if you throw in hiring voice actors to do narrative, you run into ever-increasing costs.  Image films had to create 30+ hours of film for them, but people only saw 2 of them?  That drives the costs through the roof.   However, in all this, if you design COOL gameplay, that is fun, then the story can be linear, and you replay because the gameplay is fun.  However, focus too much on story, and not enough on gameplay, and you play through once, and don't touch again.



valen200 said:
you can get away with no story, like mario, but if you are attempting to have a story it needs to be passable. thought there are times when a well told story makes the game less fun to play. Fallout 3 has a well done story with subtle foreshadowing and growth as a character. If you play good, at least, you grow from an innocent thrust into the harsh world and gradually become it's savior. and then you frickin have no choice to be a good character and survive the story you die a hero, despite have the good guy exclusive mutant who is immune to radiation is with you. they were so excited to tell their story that they robbed you of a logical course of action to shoehorn you into it. If i were watching a movie with the orginal pre-dlc hero ending of Fallout 3 it would be a touching moment. When playing it , i feel cheated.

I mean, Fallout 3 didn't have a good story it had a passable story. It had liam neeson who is awesome. It had a great world. With interesting characters in it. Much like MGS4 and Some Final Fantasy's

Like Nuking megaton and the character interaction was amazing. But, that doesnt mean the story was good



richardhutnik said:
thelifatree said:
richardhutnik said:
thelifatree said:
A really high percentage of movies have a bad story. Such as avatar, overly simple, incredibley stereotyped and it's the highest grosisng movie ever.

On top of what I wrote before, taking what you said is true, movies also have an additional revenue stream that videogames lack, which is the movie theater.  Before a movie hits home, it stands a chance to recover its development costs and make a profit.  Games don't have this, and will suffer greatly if they can't keep their costs down to come into being.  And also, factor in what normally goes into stories, that being they are linear and far more under the control of the storyteller.  Unless a game shows it has an ability to be replayable, then all that effort to tell a story through a game will result in a product that will hit the used area, and undermine sales.  If the videogame industry then tries to counter this by blocking people from unloading once through story-drive experience titles, then look for that part of the videogame industry to dry up, and studios that make these games to fold.  No way can the industry survive on play through once and require people to pay over $60 for a game.

Well I know I'm not a factor but for exampel me and my friends replay Final Fantasyies and Vagrant stories... for example. I never replay games like God of War or Games like that because it because to easy.

If a game has interesting rambling I'll play it again.


Linear is not bad... Like to some people it is. But my favorite games this Generation. Dead Space, Mario, FF, Fallout (well not that) bioshock are all linear. Hell ME2 is linear

Linearity lowers the costs for the developers, sandbox games are not cheap

There is an issue when you design a game being replayable, UNLESS it is a sandbox/dynamic world (like Civ, or Elite), where you have to create every aspect of the game, and the responses from the characters.  And then if you throw in hiring voice actors to do narrative, you run into ever-increasing costs.  Image films had to create 30+ hours of film for them, but people only saw 2 of them?  That drives the costs through the roof.   However, in all this, if you design COOL gameplay, that is fun, then the story can be linear, and you replay because the gameplay is fun.  However, focus too much on story, and not enough on gameplay, and you play through once, and don't touch again.

I agree AKA heavy rain.

However the games mentioned bioshock (which gameplay was bad but I still replayed it), Metal Gear, and stuff I've gone though more than once.

But maybe I just get too attached to the characters than the norm.



thelifatree said:
valen200 said:
you can get away with no story, like mario, but if you are attempting to have a story it needs to be passable. thought there are times when a well told story makes the game less fun to play. Fallout 3 has a well done story with subtle foreshadowing and growth as a character. If you play good, at least, you grow from an innocent thrust into the harsh world and gradually become it's savior. and then you frickin have no choice to be a good character and survive the story you die a hero, despite have the good guy exclusive mutant who is immune to radiation is with you. they were so excited to tell their story that they robbed you of a logical course of action to shoehorn you into it. If i were watching a movie with the orginal pre-dlc hero ending of Fallout 3 it would be a touching moment. When playing it , i feel cheated.

I mean, Fallout 3 didn't have a good story. It had liam neeson who is awesome. It had a great world. With interesting characters in it. Much like MGS4

actuall6, i enjopyed the story up until the end. it utterly ruined the game for me, and i still really dislike it. it was a poor choice to force that move.

 

 



"But as always, technology refused to be dignity's bitch."--Vance DeGeneres

 

http://cheezburger.com/danatblair/lolz/View/4772264960

I think the first response to Richard's editorial is a must read for all interested in this topic as well, as it touches on the nature of game design and how game design can have a distinct impact on the way a story unfolds:

By Sean Riley on April 17, 2010 - 3:58am.

I think there's an element in your analysis that you're forgetting here -- how is the information given to the player? This is also a big part of storytelling, and it's a crucial element in games, where the delivery moreso than other media is more uncertain; audience controlled.

To my mind, Bioshock is a pretty poor example of good writing. Its story is told too often in clumsy fashion; use of audio diaries, ghost sequence flashbacks, etc. By contrast, I'd give Half-Life 2 much higher marks, where its storytelling does come in dialogue, true, but more often than not in the motion around you, broadcasts from Dr. Breen, etc. It's much more fluid and well controlled.

That said, neither would be in my top shelf marks for great game storytelling. Those three would be Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and Far Cry 2.

Ico and Shadow of the Colossus both get the exact same thing right: The story is small, but delivered upfront and then told, endlessly, in the gameplay itself. Ico creates its premise swiftly: The story of two people, trapped in a castle, come to rely upon each other. Then the entire game devotes itself to reinforcing that idea; the usual lack of enemies (and that those enemies who do appear try to separate the two characters) and wide empty spaces, the way that the models are animated to emphasise their togetherness (notice the way save points work, with the characters waking up after having fallen asleep on each other's shoulders; or the way the girl looks at the boy's hand if her hand is held). Shadow of the Colossus creates its faustian bargain (Sixteen lives in exchange for one) and then depopulates its world into only those sixteen, makes those creatures beautiful, and visibly degrades its main character upon each death.

Far Cry 2 understands this model and subverts it slightly by only revealing its point in words halfway in. None the less, it's all told in the gameplay: Give you a clear objective, and then set none of your missions as leading you to completing it, while ramping up the game's brutality and violence in every possible fashion. The player comes to realise the story not through the cut-scenes (which are mostly red herrings) but in gameplay itself. Its Heart of Darkness inspired journey to the dark side is left entirely to the player to realise.

Neither of these have complex storylines, deeply realised characters or plotting twists of the games you praise above, but they resonate thematically, and the more and more I think about it, the more I think this is what games do well. I think we need to think about what good storytelling is in games, because I think it's going to wind up being wholly different to any other medium.

ps. Aquaria, which I have not played, sounds very much like what I would admire. The Path almost got there, but I think the game designers meager programming skills actually got in the way -- The flat forest floor and awkward controls destroyed what would have been an exceptionally powerful theme the game strove to develop: The joy of disobedience.