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Forums - General - Re-educating prisoners

NinjaguyDan said:
Kasz216 said:
NinjaguyDan said:
Kasz216 said:
NinjaguyDan said:
Kasz216 said:
I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries.

If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems.

For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller.

Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs.


You want to reallocate 10% of the military budget to educate criminals.  I'm assuming that 10% also is going to cover the cost of prison?  The problem being though... education spending in the US tends to not work... ironically because of how it's done with public schools.  Though really, nobody seems to do it well.  There is a reason why private schools get better results and pay less.

Education spending in the U.S. doesn't work because right-wingers usually control the purse strings (one way or another) and purposely fuck things up just so they can say "SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!"

Get those fuckers out of the equation and I guarantee you it will work.


Sure.. that's why even in states that democrats are in control of it doesn't work. I'm trying to have an actual conversation here, not a blind idealouge war... if your not up for that, please let me know so i'm not wasting my time. Another issue that comes up is due to the extra 18,500 spent per inmate that likely wouldn't be enough to cover the educational needs... this brings the amount we spend per inmate to 38,500 a year. Median Per capita income is 46,000. Considering the expenses are actually likely to be higher then 18,500 per prisoner we may end up spending more on each prisoner then the average man makes.

5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population...

In the "land of the free" how can that be possible?  Because the U.S. is enthralled by a fucked-up right-wing authoritarian ideology.

Well... A that 25% of the world's prison population is a debatable statistic considering a number of countries probably aren't giving the real number... and B... rather pointless since a lot of countries just outright kill criminals in giant rates unlike the US who while we have the death penalty it's not used that much... and it takes years to be used rather then... "well your caught."  Addtionally criminality is a LOT more complicated then your "lets blame it on the republicans" reason.  

I'd suggest reading outliers... or maybe it was blink... one of those books has an interesting piece on how cultural legacy can actually effect you.  There is no "overnight" fixing of crime... and US crime rates have less to do with poltical history and more to do with cultural history.  The USA is a young nation... that still has some "frontier mentality" not to mention African Americans cultural history of well... being screwed by authority HARD.  Also, immigrants from poorer countries whose cultural history is to not trust the authorities.   These are things that can't be fixed by simply "booting out the republicans."



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NinjaguyDan said:

5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population...

In the "land of the free" how can that be possible?  Because the U.S. is enthralled by a fucked-up right-wing authoritarian ideology.

Could you define that with measurable evidence? Your spouting a lot of stuff with virtually no statistical backup.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Chairman-Mao said:
Kasz216 said:
 Either way it all depends on whether you think the main purpose of prison is to punish or to rehibilitate.

I think 10 years in a dark room by himself with nothing but bread and water will more likely stop someone from ever killing again than teaching them skills and trying to make them a better person ever will.

 


That would make him insane, 6 months of isolation drives just about anyone completely insane, I can't imagine 10 years. You would make him FAR more dangerous to himself and others. There is another way, but it's not an extreme left OR and extreme right take on it.

 

Fixed spelling



PSN ID: KingFate_

if it helps with there rehab, I dont have any huge issues with it.



KingFate said:
Chairman-Mao said:
Kasz216 said:
 Either way it all depends on whether you think the main purpose of prison is to punish or to rehibilitate.

I think 10 years in a dark room by himself with nothing but bread and water will more likely stop someone from ever killing again than teaching them skills and trying to make them a better person ever will.

 

That would make him insane, 6 months of isolation breaks down even the most strong willed persons sanity. You would make he FAR more dangerous to himself and others. There is another way, but it's not an extreme left OR and extreme right take on it.

Okay I exaggerated a fair bit there, you got me. Sorry I'm just really against treating prisoners like regular law-abiding citizens, they should face much worse conditions as punishment for the harm they've caused society.

Of course they'd get you know an hour or so a day in the yard for exercise and stuff; and I don't mean just bread and water (because they'd get sick) of course there'd be vegetables and stuff. I really just meant no good tasting food.

 



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mrstickball said:
NinjaguyDan said:

5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population...

In the "land of the free" how can that be possible?  Because the U.S. is enthralled by a fucked-up right-wing authoritarian ideology.

Could you define that with measurable evidence? Your spouting a lot of stuff with virtually no statistical backup.

Here's the Wiki, or is that too liberal a source for you?

1981 was the beginning of the authoritarian age.  I was there and watched it happen in real time.



Switch: SW-5066-1525-5130

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So.....yeah....that's a nice graph....but uhm....what does it have to do with world prison stats or "right-wingers"?



To Each Man, Responsibility
Sqrl said:
So.....yeah....that's a nice graph....but uhm....what does it have to do with world prison stats or "right-wingers"?


I was going to say the same thing... the problem is... the "25%" stat are pretty much based on countries words... for example China is listed as having 1.5 million prisoners. Not counting, 750,000 detainees or anyone who hasn't gone to trial yet. Political prisoners? No word. That's just if they were telling the truth. It also only counts the countries who agree to participate.

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/?search=northam&x=North%20America

It's just another general database metastudy that gets messed up because countries have their own standards of reporting stuff.  One scandanvian country I remember has a REALLY high murder rate because they count attempted murders as murders in their crime statistics.

Additionally, it should be noted the rest of the world has been catching up.



Chairman-Mao said:
Kasz216 said:
 Either way it all depends on whether you think the main purpose of prison is to punish or to rehibilitate.

Good point. There is a big difference.

 

I'd consider prison a punishment rather than rehabilitation.

Rehab is for addicts/junkies; you can get someone off drugs but you can't turn a killer into a saint (in my opinion).

 

I think 10 years in a dark room by himself with nothing but bread and water will more likely stop someone from ever killing again than teaching them skills and trying to make them a better person ever will.

What I mean is if I had to spend 10 years in solitary confinement then I would be afraid to ever commit another crime in fear I'd have to go through that again...on the other hand getting guitar lessons and interacting others will make prison a somewhat bearable experience and people won't be as afraid to go back since they know prison isn't that terrible. Do you get what i mean?

I think solitary confinement would make them far more likely to kill again. I've been reading around the subject of solitary confinement today (because I'm a geek), and it causes many psychological disorders, many of them severely dangerous. Just a short extract from an article on isolation in prisons.

"Dr. Stuart Grassian, an expert on the results of living in extended isolation, has commented at length on the psychiatric harm that can come to people subjected to long-term isolation. He interviewed people who began to cut themselves just so they can "feel" something and reports panic attacks and a progressive inability to tolerate ordinary stimulation. Isolation has been documented as a cause of paranoia, problems with impulse control, extreme motor restlessness, delusions, suspiciousness, confusion, and depression. I have treated a number of ex-control unit prisoners who come out with serious symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress."

Source

Solitary confinement clearly breeds psychological disorders in those who are subjected to it. People who have been subjected to extended solitary confinement are clearly not fit for society, significantly more so than they were before.

I think teaching someone skills is obviously a far better way of stopping them re-offending.



NinjaguyDan said:
HappySqurriel said:

Do you really want to know what a "Better Way" is?

Realistically, we need to start considering what the likelihood that someone will re-offend is, how possible it is to rehabilitate them, and what the consequence of their re-offence will be and create an appropriate sentence for them; and we need to stop the dogmatic "One Size Fits All" approach of being easy or hard on criminals. There are criminals (like sexual predators) that will almost certainly re-offend, there is little chance of rehabilitation, and they commit some of the most heinous crimes; at the same time, there are criminals who the act of being caught has effectively eliminated their ability to re-offend, rehabilitation is highly likely, and even if they do re-offend the consequences are minimal so there is limited/no need for any significant sentence.

Ok. So, where's the better way?

If you treat people like animals, they become animals. (or worse)

First off, who said anything about prisoners (necessarily) being treated poorly? As long as a prisoner conforms to the rules of the prison and doesn’t pose a risk to prison guards or other inmates the act of restricting their freedom is punitive enough to act as a deterrent.

Beyond that, how do you propose that we deal with prisoners who really are "Animals"? Most of the worst acts committed on prisoners are committed by other prisoners, and the maximum security prison is designed to protect an inmate from the rest of the population as much as it is to protect law abiding citizens from them. Realistically, we shouldn’t send people to maximum security prisons unless they present a risk to other inmates (and the type of prison should be related to the crime); but this doesn’t mean that people who are not violent should get a cushy country-club lifestyle either.