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Forums - Sony - Sony's Removal of "Other OS" May Be Against EU Law

 

Sony's Removal of "Other OS" May Be Against EU Law

Bad Sony, bad! 131 69.31%
 
I still hope it's an early April's Fools 58 30.69%
 
Total:189
Damnyouall on 30 March 2010
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

 

Exactly. And not just trade laws, also consumer protection laws (like the directive quoted in the opening post) and other laws.



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

Around the Network
mirgro on 30 March 2010
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

What a voice of reason in the thread.

I don't think people realize that what SONY is doing is a horrible practice. I am willing to bet my ass on the line that if SONY said tomorrow "We're gonna remove the ability of the PS3 to play games." Most of you will start bitching about it, well on this stie everyone will spin it like it's amazing and how it should be done, but enough digressing. Removing the Linux capability is the exact same thing as removing the ability to play games or run Bluray discs.

While the cell processor was not all that great for video games, it's absolutely amazing for outright brute force calculations? As such, the PS3 is a far better machine for computing and data centers than a gaming device. The linux allowed all that to be used, and I am betting my left nut that there are people who are indeed using the PS3 as such. Now they will be all screwed.



WereKitten on 30 March 2010
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

True.

Still, let's put it like this: you don't lose Linux as long as you refrain from updating. Thus you could lament that if you do so you're losing the right to sign in PSN for e.g. your free multiplayer gaming, and to get updates for BluRay new standards and for system software.

And still, I'm pretty sure that no trade law can oblige Sony to keep offering such services forever and at the same conditions for all users. The users did not sign with Sony an explicit contract to get those future services, after all. And those services will, obviously, stop one day, and the users agreed in the ToS that they understand the volatilty of the offer.

Once more: I think that Sony's move is brutal and a very bad business practice. But I think it's naive to hope that a law can enforce Sony giving users for free what it offered for free when they bought the console.

Now, what I can see as realistic is a class action if many future games require an updated fw, because a case could be made that the console is not fulfilling its purpose (play games).



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

strunge on 30 March 2010
Damnyouall said:
strunge said:
Damnyouall said:
If the BUYER didn't agree to those terms prior to buying the PS3, they are invalid.

the buyer agreed to those terms inherently in purchasing the PS3.  you aren't just grasping at straws, you've lost hold entirely.

You can't "inherently agree" that way. There have been several court decissions in Europe regarding this. I know what I am talking about. You don't, apparently.

let's see those cases.  I'm sure a simple google search will provide them and we can compare whether they are applicable to my argument.



strunge on 30 March 2010
mirgro said:
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

What a voice of reason in the thread.

I don't think people realize that what SONY is doing is a horrible practice. I am willing to bet my ass on the line that if SONY said tomorrow "We're gonna remove the ability of the PS3 to play games." Most of you will start bitching about it, well on this stie everyone will spin it like it's amazing and how it should be done, but enough digressing. Removing the Linux capability is the exact same thing as removing the ability to play games or run Bluray discs.

While the cell processor was not all that great for video games, it's absolutely amazing for outright brute force calculations? As such, the PS3 is a far better machine for computing and data centers than a gaming device. The linux allowed all that to be used, and I am betting my left nut that there are people who are indeed using the PS3 as such. Now they will be all screwed.

no, it isn't the same, it is a ridiculous extreme and any argument dependent on extremes is inherently a flawed argument.  logic dictates that.  of course, you have to ignore the fact that Sony isn't removing the ability, the user is removing the ability by voluntarily downloading an optional update.

the user is more than entitled to continue to use his machine as is as it functions today without any additional features Sony provides to increase the efficency and performance of the machine.  but you don't have to upgrade your machine and are more than welcome to maintain it in its current form if it suits your needs. 



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mirgro on 30 March 2010
strunge said:
mirgro said:
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

What a voice of reason in the thread.

I don't think people realize that what SONY is doing is a horrible practice. I am willing to bet my ass on the line that if SONY said tomorrow "We're gonna remove the ability of the PS3 to play games." Most of you will start bitching about it, well on this stie everyone will spin it like it's amazing and how it should be done, but enough digressing. Removing the Linux capability is the exact same thing as removing the ability to play games or run Bluray discs.

While the cell processor was not all that great for video games, it's absolutely amazing for outright brute force calculations? As such, the PS3 is a far better machine for computing and data centers than a gaming device. The linux allowed all that to be used, and I am betting my left nut that there are people who are indeed using the PS3 as such. Now they will be all screwed.

no, it isn't the same, it is a ridiculous extreme and any argument dependent on extremes is inherently a flawed argument.  logic dictates that.  of course, you have to ignore the fact that Sony isn't removing the ability, the user is removing the ability by voluntarily downloading an optional update.

the user is more than entitled to continue to use his machine as is as it functions today without any additional features Sony provides to increase the efficency and performance of the machine.  but you don't have to upgrade your machine and are more than welcome to maintain it in its current form if it suits your needs. 

I don't see how it is taking it to the extreme. Just like some people bought a PS3 to p[lay games or watch movies, others actually wanted to exploit its computational power. I know of at least one person on a college campus who uses PS3s as such.

Again, outline how removing Linux is somehow different than removing the ability to play games or watch movies?



GameAnalyser on 30 March 2010
Damnyouall said:

Look what I just found:

EU Directive 1999/44/EC

Article 2

Conformity with the contract

1. The seller must deliver goods to the consumer which are in conformity with the contract of sale.

2. Consumer goods are presumed to be in conformity with the contract if they:

( a ) comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the goods which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;

( b ) are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them unless it doesn't support piracy or any illegal product replication and which he made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract and which the seller has accepted;

( c ) are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;

( d ) show the quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type and which the consumer can reasonably expect, given the nature of the goods and taking into account any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31999L0044&model=guichett

fixed. read b

or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act



Damnyouall on 30 March 2010

Just as an example, here's a decission from the German Federal Court against Microsoft. It states that their EULA/TOS trying to prevent people from reselling OEM Windows are invalid, because it goes against trade law and because the buyers never actually agreed to those terms.
It's in German, you may need to translate it. http://www.jurpc.de/rechtspr/20000220.htm



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

Ail on 30 March 2010
Squilliam said:
Ail said:
Squilliam said:
EULA don't mean squat. If they break the law then they are invalid. There are numerous cases where the EULA hasn't held up in a court of law.

It's happened to pretty much every software company to remove a feature in a service pack that was previously available, you're gonna sue all of them ?

 

Did you sue EA when they canned the Madden 09 servers ?

I don't think so....

That was America, this is the EU. If people want their money back for their PS3s they may have a case though it has to be tested in court. I hope so personally as I want to get a slim and making a fuss is an awesome way to do it.

Madden is sold worlwide....



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

strunge on 30 March 2010
mirgro said:
strunge said:
mirgro said:
Khuutra said:
Tridrakious said:
It's Sony's machine. Technically they can do whatever they with it. By playing it, you've agreed to their Terms and Services.

While it sucks that Sony is taking away a feature from the system. GET OVER IT!

Again: if the ToS go against trade laws, then the ToS is not valid.

I don't know if it's actually against trade laws, but the EULA and the ToS won't mean diddly poop if they go against EU law.

What a voice of reason in the thread.

I don't think people realize that what SONY is doing is a horrible practice. I am willing to bet my ass on the line that if SONY said tomorrow "We're gonna remove the ability of the PS3 to play games." Most of you will start bitching about it, well on this stie everyone will spin it like it's amazing and how it should be done, but enough digressing. Removing the Linux capability is the exact same thing as removing the ability to play games or run Bluray discs.

While the cell processor was not all that great for video games, it's absolutely amazing for outright brute force calculations? As such, the PS3 is a far better machine for computing and data centers than a gaming device. The linux allowed all that to be used, and I am betting my left nut that there are people who are indeed using the PS3 as such. Now they will be all screwed.

no, it isn't the same, it is a ridiculous extreme and any argument dependent on extremes is inherently a flawed argument.  logic dictates that.  of course, you have to ignore the fact that Sony isn't removing the ability, the user is removing the ability by voluntarily downloading an optional update.

the user is more than entitled to continue to use his machine as is as it functions today without any additional features Sony provides to increase the efficency and performance of the machine.  but you don't have to upgrade your machine and are more than welcome to maintain it in its current form if it suits your needs. 

I don't see how it is taking it to the extreme. Just like some people bought a PS3 to p[lay games or watch movies, others actually wanted to exploit its computational power. I know of at least one person on a college campus who uses PS3s as such.

Again, outline how removing Linux is somehow different than removing the ability to play games or watch movies?

because it ignores the fact that the PS3 is being sold as a video game and blu ray system.  removing those features removes what the systems function is.  the Other OS wasn't what the PS3 it, is is simply an additional feature.  removing the other OS is equivalent to removing the option to change themes and upload music, not ceasing to allow the machine to perform its primary function. big difference between the two.

not to mention Sony isn't removing it, the user is.  the fact that you confuse the two reveals your confusion about the entire scenario and why you are trying to confuse features with function.