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Forums - General - Russia's bombings, whoah!

Mr Khan on 30 March 2010

At this point the terrorism is mostly futile gestures from a group that hasn't been completely stamped out, but knows that they can't make any significant victories

 

Chechnya is part of Russia again, and you're seeing a resurgence of the terrorism currently because Russia just ended major counter-terrorism operations in Chechnya, and this is more the terrorists' way of saying "hey! We're not beat yet!"

 

Also the terrorism is partly a response to Putin/Medvedev's media embargoes on activities in Chechnya. Terrorism is one of the few ways the Chechens can get the Russian people to pay attention to what's going on.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Kasz216 on 30 March 2010
Branko2166 said:
Kasz216 said:
supercat said:
but, it's the same result, either way. Either way, you are disrupting a less advantaged country, and winning by showing them who's boss. Ultimately, you have to do this, i'm not saying that Russia's way is less heavyhanded b/c it is, just that our actions are also disruptive to the economy and sense of normalcy.

I wouldn't really say it was the same result.  The russians killed 1/4th of their population and expelled them from their land for like 40 years.

This is also assuming we believe the russians that it was those rebels.

If you study the Russian Chechynian conflict... it's really hard to find a "good guy."

Imagine the Palestine VS Israel conflict except Israel constantly ignored human rights, indiscriminatly kill and even go out of there way to kill human rights activists.

 

The deportations you speak of happened during the Soviet period while Josef Stalin was in charge. To understand the circumstances under which the deportations took place I would suggest reading here or any other numerous sources.

http://www.massviolence.org/The-Massive-Deportation-of-the-Chechen-People-How-and-why

 

By the way your comparisons between the USA getting attacked and Russia invading and then being attacked are flawed.

Until this very day there has been no proof that Afghanistan has had anything to do with 9/11. Furthermore the bombers that the USA itself states took part in the attack were mostly Saudi nationals.

The Chechnia situation would be more comparable to a  state in America attempting to secede and the US government using force to prevent it from doing so.

Now personally I'm not saying Russia or the Chechens are right but to compare that situation to what the USA has done in the name of fighting terrorism is laughable and a great distortion of the facts.

 

And regarding the recent bombings, they were senseless and will have the opposite effect to the one that the bombers were hoping for. It will only serve to unite Russians behind their leadership and will not alter Russia's policy besides them increasing security.

 

Except for the fact that that's where all the planning and Al Queda were.

Additionally, the above isn't correct because the Chechens never joined via free will.  They were always invaded always wanted to be free, and then whenever they were they were invaded again.

The deportations were under stalin, and yet the dehumanizing of those people still occurs.  Either way, when Stalin did that, those people deserve to be free from ANY russian government.



Kasz216 on 30 March 2010

Something like Native American terrorists would be a better parallel... though still a bit off since we aren't systematically destroying and making things worse for them anymore.

If the US were to be attacked by Native American Terrorists who wanted their reservations to be completely free from the United States, I'd be pissed... but I'd also understand and in fact would support them in their wishes to secede if the majority of their population wished.

 



Branko2166 on 31 March 2010
Kasz216 said:

Something like Native American terrorists would be a better parallel... though still a bit off since we aren't systematically destroying and making things worse for them anymore.

If the US were to be attacked by Native American Terrorists who wanted their reservations to be completely free from the United States, I'd be pissed... but I'd also understand and in fact would support them in their wishes to secede if the majority of their population wished.

 

The native american parallel is not valid simply because most of them have been wiped out. A true genocide if there ever was one.

Unlike the majority of native Americans the Chechens have been given a chance to live within Russia.

 



 

 

Kasz216 on 31 March 2010
Branko2166 said:
Kasz216 said:

Something like Native American terrorists would be a better parallel... though still a bit off since we aren't systematically destroying and making things worse for them anymore.

If the US were to be attacked by Native American Terrorists who wanted their reservations to be completely free from the United States, I'd be pissed... but I'd also understand and in fact would support them in their wishes to secede if the majority of their population wished.

 

The native american parallel is not valid simply because most of them have been wiped out. A true genocide if there ever was one.

Unlike the majority of native Americans the Chechens have been given a chance to live within Russia.

 

Which the Cechens don't want.  The russians should get out and stay out.



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mirgro on 31 March 2010
Kasz216 said:

I'd say the big difference.

Mainly, the US gets attacked, the US invades Afghanistan. US invades Iraq, plans to invade Iran.

Russia invades Chechnya, Russia deports a bunch of the people which kills about 1/4th of them. Get their independence when the USSR falls. Russia invades them again. Russia gets attacked.

Not that innoncent people deserve to be killed by terrorists but...

I'd hardly say the two comparisons are comprable.

 

Missing a few steps there.

 

Also, the US is across the ocean meanwhile Russia is right next to everyone else. It is much harder to hit America from the Middle East than RUssia. If the US was where Russia is right now, there'd be a lot more bombs going kaboom, and people dying in the US, from all sorts of nations in the Middle East.

 

I can hardly say that you can accurately compare the two of them at all. The US has gotten so much benefit from the fact that they are ahrd to reach that it's not even funny.

 

P.S. America is MUCH worse, since you brought up Native Americans. The comparable to what American did to the Native Americans would be for Russia to roll the tanks in Chechnya and kill and rape all men, women, and children. Then to the few thousand that somehow did not die, are set on foot to the Gulags in Siberia. So don't even start. The US is far worse than Russia when it comes to this sort of thing.



Branko2166 on 31 March 2010
Kasz216 said:
Branko2166 said:
Kasz216 said:

Something like Native American terrorists would be a better parallel... though still a bit off since we aren't systematically destroying and making things worse for them anymore.

If the US were to be attacked by Native American Terrorists who wanted their reservations to be completely free from the United States, I'd be pissed... but I'd also understand and in fact would support them in their wishes to secede if the majority of their population wished.

 

The native american parallel is not valid simply because most of them have been wiped out. A true genocide if there ever was one.

Unlike the majority of native Americans the Chechens have been given a chance to live within Russia.

 

Which the Cechens don't want.  The russians should get out and stay out.

U mean like the Union should have stayed out of the confederacy??

 



 

 

Kasz216 on 31 March 2010
Branko2166 said:
Kasz216 said:
Branko2166 said:
Kasz216 said:

Something like Native American terrorists would be a better parallel... though still a bit off since we aren't systematically destroying and making things worse for them anymore.

If the US were to be attacked by Native American Terrorists who wanted their reservations to be completely free from the United States, I'd be pissed... but I'd also understand and in fact would support them in their wishes to secede if the majority of their population wished.

 

The native american parallel is not valid simply because most of them have been wiped out. A true genocide if there ever was one.

Unlike the majority of native Americans the Chechens have been given a chance to live within Russia.

 

Which the Cechens don't want.  The russians should get out and stay out.

U mean like the Union should have stayed out of the confederacy??

 

The states of the confederacy willingly joined the union in the first place.  Once again, not comprable.



Kasz216 on 31 March 2010
mirgro said:
Kasz216 said:

I'd say the big difference.

Mainly, the US gets attacked, the US invades Afghanistan. US invades Iraq, plans to invade Iran.

Russia invades Chechnya, Russia deports a bunch of the people which kills about 1/4th of them. Get their independence when the USSR falls. Russia invades them again. Russia gets attacked.

Not that innoncent people deserve to be killed by terrorists but...

I'd hardly say the two comparisons are comprable.

 

Missing a few steps there.

 

Also, the US is across the ocean meanwhile Russia is right next to everyone else. It is much harder to hit America from the Middle East than RUssia. If the US was where Russia is right now, there'd be a lot more bombs going kaboom, and people dying in the US, from all sorts of nations in the Middle East.

 

I can hardly say that you can accurately compare the two of them at all. The US has gotten so much benefit from the fact that they are ahrd to reach that it's not even funny.

 

P.S. America is MUCH worse, since you brought up Native Americans. The comparable to what American did to the Native Americans would be for Russia to roll the tanks in Chechnya and kill and rape all men, women, and children. Then to the few thousand that somehow did not die, are set on foot to the Gulags in Siberia. So don't even start. The US is far worse than Russia when it comes to this sort of thing.

Being "hard to reach" is irrelevent when you've provoked people into it.

Also the Native American issue really wasn't any worse.  The Trail of Tears, the worst case was roughly analgous to the Cechians movement... which about 25% of those people dieing just like the Cechian movement.

The largest difference was that the Native Americans were resigned to losing after that and didn't put up much resistance  after the initial problemsunlike the Cechyians.  That and the US eventually realized what it did was horrible, gave the Native Amreicans self rule and benefits in the hopes it would begin to make up for what it did.

While anything Russia does is because it's hands are forced, they screw with their local politics and even send troops in to mess things up and kill people. 



mirgro on 31 March 2010
Kasz216 said:
mirgro said:
Kasz216 said:

I'd say the big difference.

Mainly, the US gets attacked, the US invades Afghanistan. US invades Iraq, plans to invade Iran.

Russia invades Chechnya, Russia deports a bunch of the people which kills about 1/4th of them. Get their independence when the USSR falls. Russia invades them again. Russia gets attacked.

Not that innoncent people deserve to be killed by terrorists but...

I'd hardly say the two comparisons are comprable.

 

Missing a few steps there.

 

Also, the US is across the ocean meanwhile Russia is right next to everyone else. It is much harder to hit America from the Middle East than RUssia. If the US was where Russia is right now, there'd be a lot more bombs going kaboom, and people dying in the US, from all sorts of nations in the Middle East.

 

I can hardly say that you can accurately compare the two of them at all. The US has gotten so much benefit from the fact that they are ahrd to reach that it's not even funny.

 

P.S. America is MUCH worse, since you brought up Native Americans. The comparable to what American did to the Native Americans would be for Russia to roll the tanks in Chechnya and kill and rape all men, women, and children. Then to the few thousand that somehow did not die, are set on foot to the Gulags in Siberia. So don't even start. The US is far worse than Russia when it comes to this sort of thing.

Being "hard to reach" is irrelevent when you've provoked people into it.

Also the Native American issue really wasn't any worse.  The Trail of Tears, the worst case was roughly analgous to the Cechians movement... which about 25% of those people dieing just like the Cechian movement.

The largest difference was that the Native Americans were resigned to losing after that and didn't put up much resistance  after the initial problemsunlike the Cechyians.  That and the US eventually realized what it did was horrible, gave the Native Amreicans self rule and benefits in the hopes it would begin to make up for what it did.

While anything Russia does is because it's hands are forced, they screw with their local politics and even send troops in to mess things up and kill people. 

Th Trail of Tears was the worst case, after total genocide. As fas as I know, Chechens still have an area they call home as well as a pretty sizeable population.

Until Russia kills off all but some thousands, then we can start talking US. Until then the US should really just shut up about this issue since it's really not the one to talk.