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Forums - General Discussion - Why do people vote for Hilary and Obama?

Final-Fan on 23 November 2007
Sqrl said:
fkusumot said:
Sqrl said:
 

This past year the guy who cought the big Bonds homerun had to sell the ball because the IRS knocked on his door the next morning saying they wanted their share.

The fact is that there are folks who have estates worth a few million and the money is all tied up in assets that they own. It is not an uncommon occurence for people to sell portions of an estate to pay the taxes on the estate. The fact that anyone would be forced to sell things given to them by their recently deceased relative is quite frankly mortifying.


Taxes are paid on things given as gifts over a certain amount. Are you in favor of getting rid of the gift tax? Anyways, rich people, the really rich ones, have trusts. There are ways around paying estate taxes (estate planning) so in my mind it comes down to poor planning by the person making the gift of some property to another person upon their death. I don't know why you find it mortifying that things are sold. I understand the sentimentality but painting it like that is a little overboard. If you look hard at what people have to sell to pay taxes it almost always involves real estate that is worth so much that the person inheriting it could not afford to live there and pay the property taxes. If it is the specifics that irk you so much then we could delve into details.

On the question of a plutocracy vs. meritocracy: I have looked at the history and plutocracies only come about when the amount of capital becomes extremely skewed distribution wise. Plutocracies don't exist when the distribution of capital is more even. Plutocracies aren't meritocratic by definition. I prefer meritocracies so I am for measures that prevent the rise of plutocracies. I view campaign finance reform as only a treatment for the symptom and not a cure (but I'm still for campaign finance, go McCain).


As far as the gift tax goes, I will be honest in saying I am at odds with this one. I can see many problems created by allowing the shift of wealth so easily. With the estate tax it is quite a bit different since...well you have to die to do it =P

But in the case of just handing off money to someone I can definitely see issues that would come up. It definitely isn't my favorite law but once again I recognize that the system isn't going to be perfect and that some neccessary evils will exist.

This is also a law that I am fairly unfamiliar with. But on the surface it would appear it is one of those neccessary evils.


I truly don't understand this. What problems could there be with people giving other people lots of stuff? I would be opposed to the gift tax if it didn't serve the function of stopping people from avoiding the estate tax.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan on 24 November 2007
Kasz216 said:
elprincipe said:
Kasz216 said:
elprincipe said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Fortune Magazine, May 15th 2006 cites the Veteran's healtcare as the most cost-efficent healthcare in the country. So. Yeah... there ya go.

They have a 90 out of 100 rating while spending the least amount of money. Pretty amazing i'd say.


Wow, surprising to hear. Do you have a link where I can read this article? I know there are several in this thread that would like me to visit the crow-eating thread :)


http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/05/15/8376846/index.htm


Wow, this is surprising and wonderful to hear. While I will still maintain my point that generally the private sector does it better, and even point out that in certain areas now and definitely over the long haul the private sector will do this better as well (as soon as they get off their asses and use IT to improve health care as the VA has done), I shall certainly visit the Crow Eating Thread due to this information. Thanks for the information!

The problem is it takes the government sector to spur this change because the private sector was afraid to use this technology because if it failed just once they'd have some lawsuits on their hands. That and the systems themselves were so effective before the implmentation of it at the VA that only the largest healtcare providers could afford it. Those that could didn't want to take a risk that could blow up in their face and force them to lose ground to their competitors.

I mean, you'd be surprised how much money gets spent on things like advertisments and consumer marketing for hospitals. My one teacher used to consult for hospitals all the time... for a modest fee he'd find out how to best position themselves against other hospitals.

If it weren't for the VA and government healthcare this stuff wouldn't of reached hostpitals for a long long time. Even now it'll probably take forever for a decent number of healthcare providers to get it.


Sometimes the government is the only entity to take a leadership role in research and development. ARPANET.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 24 November 2007

"I don't see why taking more from the final category is immoral. Even the dead ones."
Getting more tax revenue from the rich isn't inheritly immoral, but as for the deceased I think it is immoral. Partly because you aren't taking from them but from their family that they left it to.
By the way -- if this is your position, please stop calling it the death tax. After all, it's not the heirs who are dying.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

fkusumot on 24 November 2007
Sqrl said:
fkusumot said:
Sqrl said:
 

This past year the guy who cought the big Bonds homerun had to sell the ball because the IRS knocked on his door the next morning saying they wanted their share.

The fact is that there are folks who have estates worth a few million and the money is all tied up in assets that they own. It is not an uncommon occurence for people to sell portions of an estate to pay the taxes on the estate. The fact that anyone would be forced to sell things given to them by their recently deceased relative is quite frankly mortifying.


Taxes are paid on things given as gifts over a certain amount. Are you in favor of getting rid of the gift tax? Anyways, rich people, the really rich ones, have trusts. There are ways around paying estate taxes (estate planning) so in my mind it comes down to poor planning by the person making the gift of some property to another person upon their death. I don't know why you find it mortifying that things are sold. I understand the sentimentality but painting it like that is a little overboard. If you look hard at what people have to sell to pay taxes it almost always involves real estate that is worth so much that the person inheriting it could not afford to live there and pay the property taxes. If it is the specifics that irk you so much then we could delve into details.

On the question of a plutocracy vs. meritocracy: I have looked at the history and plutocracies only come about when the amount of capital becomes extremely skewed distribution wise. Plutocracies don't exist when the distribution of capital is more even. Plutocracies aren't meritocratic by definition. I prefer meritocracies so I am for measures that prevent the rise of plutocracies. I view campaign finance reform as only a treatment for the symptom and not a cure (but I'm still for campaign finance, go McCain).


As far as the gift tax goes, I will be honest in saying I am at odds with this one. I can see many problems created by allowing the shift of wealth so easily. With the estate tax it is quite a bit different since...well you have to die to do it =P

But in the case of just handing off money to someone I can definitely see issues that would come up. It definitely isn't my favorite law but once again I recognize that the system isn't going to be perfect and that some neccessary evils will exist.

This is also a law that I am fairly unfamiliar with. But on the surface it would appear it is one of those neccessary evils.


 The main difference between my view of the estate tax and yours may be that I view the estate as a gift. I see the same type of problem as you with having no gift tax and I think that applies also to the estate tax. 



I Blame Wii Fit!

Sqrl on 24 November 2007
fkusumot said:
Sqrl said:
fkusumot said:
Sqrl said:
 

This past year the guy who cought the big Bonds homerun had to sell the ball because the IRS knocked on his door the next morning saying they wanted their share.

The fact is that there are folks who have estates worth a few million and the money is all tied up in assets that they own. It is not an uncommon occurence for people to sell portions of an estate to pay the taxes on the estate. The fact that anyone would be forced to sell things given to them by their recently deceased relative is quite frankly mortifying.


Taxes are paid on things given as gifts over a certain amount. Are you in favor of getting rid of the gift tax? Anyways, rich people, the really rich ones, have trusts. There are ways around paying estate taxes (estate planning) so in my mind it comes down to poor planning by the person making the gift of some property to another person upon their death. I don't know why you find it mortifying that things are sold. I understand the sentimentality but painting it like that is a little overboard. If you look hard at what people have to sell to pay taxes it almost always involves real estate that is worth so much that the person inheriting it could not afford to live there and pay the property taxes. If it is the specifics that irk you so much then we could delve into details.

On the question of a plutocracy vs. meritocracy: I have looked at the history and plutocracies only come about when the amount of capital becomes extremely skewed distribution wise. Plutocracies don't exist when the distribution of capital is more even. Plutocracies aren't meritocratic by definition. I prefer meritocracies so I am for measures that prevent the rise of plutocracies. I view campaign finance reform as only a treatment for the symptom and not a cure (but I'm still for campaign finance, go McCain).


As far as the gift tax goes, I will be honest in saying I am at odds with this one. I can see many problems created by allowing the shift of wealth so easily. With the estate tax it is quite a bit different since...well you have to die to do it =P

But in the case of just handing off money to someone I can definitely see issues that would come up. It definitely isn't my favorite law but once again I recognize that the system isn't going to be perfect and that some neccessary evils will exist.

This is also a law that I am fairly unfamiliar with. But on the surface it would appear it is one of those neccessary evils.


The main difference between my view of the estate tax and yours may be that I view the estate as a gift. I see the same type of problem as you with having no gift tax and I think that applies also to the estate tax.


 If someone is willing to die to give a "gift", then that is some hardcore dedication.



To Each Man, Responsibility
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fkusumot on 24 November 2007
Sqrl said:
fkusumot said:
Sqrl said:
 

As far as the gift tax goes, I will be honest in saying I am at odds with this one. I can see many problems created by allowing the shift of wealth so easily. With the estate tax it is quite a bit different since...well you have to die to do it =P

But in the case of just handing off money to someone I can definitely see issues that would come up. It definitely isn't my favorite law but once again I recognize that the system isn't going to be perfect and that some neccessary evils will exist.

This is also a law that I am fairly unfamiliar with. But on the surface it would appear it is one of those neccessary evils.


The main difference between my view of the estate tax and yours may be that I view the estate as a gift. I see the same type of problem as you with having no gift tax and I think that applies also to the estate tax.


If someone is willing to die to give a "gift", then that is some hardcore dedication.


 It's as simple as putting them in the will. You can also get the property through the mechanisms of state law if you're not in the will (spouse/child/relative) and through contesting a will. It is my firm belief that the US will become a plutocracy without the estate tax and that is why I am against abolishing it. Bill Gates Sr. has written some good editorials in favor of the estate tax. You might find them interesting.



I Blame Wii Fit!

Final-Fan on 24 November 2007

[edit:  Never mind, I want an answer to the whole post.]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 25 November 2007

Hmpf! No response, Sqrl?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!