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Forums - General Discussion - Using "reconciliation" for healthcare

adriane23 said:

B) You mean to say most of those people are against a bill they THINK forces them to get healthcare or pay giant fines....

From Obama's bill on Whitehouse.gov:

The President’s Proposal adopts the Senate approach but lowers the flat dollar assessments, and raises the percent of income assessment that individuals pay if they choose not to become insured. Specifically, it lowers the flat dollar amounts from $495 to $325 in 2015 and $750 to $695 in 2016. Subsequent years are indexed to $695 rather than $750, so the flat dollar amounts in later years are lower than the Senate bill as well. The President’s Proposal raises the percent of income that is an alternative payment amount from 0.5 to 1.0% in 2014, 1.0 to 2.0% in 2015, and 2.0 to 2.5% for 2016 and subsequent years – the same percent of income as in the House bill, which makes the assessment more progressive. For ease of administration, the President’s Proposal changes the payment exemption from the Senate policy (individuals with income below the poverty threshold) to individuals with income below the tax filing threshold (the House policy). In other words, a married couple with income below $18,700 will not have to pay the assessment. The President’s Proposal also adopts the Senate’s “hardship” exemption.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/proposal

 



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psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
@PSRock Mitt Romney or John Thune

Good luck with that.

As bad as Obama is supposingly doing, he's still more popular than any of these guys. The most popular Republican is a retard who writes notes in hands, knows nothing about reality and seriously needs to shut the fuck up. The Republican party need a leader, someone sane, I havent seen that person yet.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html +2.3 on the disapproval.  If the election were held today OH, FL, VA, NC, and the MW states the Ferengi won would turn red.  Romney has a 39/24 spread with wide margins of indies going GOP.  Palin is not the most popular with ~50+% of GOP support against her.

Romney, the guy fighting on the plane, will NEVER be president of the United States.

Think about it for one second

Obama according to you guys is horrible as a president, needs to be impeached, country in bad debt, bad economy, done nothing, pushing health care on people while no one wants it, he needs to be replaced.

47.8 approval rating.

 

52.9% 2008 returns.  The One would lose with 47.8% without some akin to a 1992 plurality.

This country goes back and forth, you should know better, go look at Bush before the second terms, he was behind until the election and won. The Republican needs a star and the best they can offer is a retard.

Ind vote psrock, ind vote.  Once you change that demo's mind, it is hard to change back.  A lot of this is going to be 2010 results.  Right now the GOP wins indies on a 2:1+ margin.  They will vote the same way in 2012 if anti-incumbent fever continues past the midterms (it will).  Btw, I mentioned Romney and Thune.  They are not Palin.  Thune beat inc. Daschle if you'll remember.  Romney won in a deep blue state.

Hopefully these two are your nominees. Hopefully.

Possibly, Romney is running.  Pawlenty is as well.  Thune idk.  Haley Barbour maybe but he will not win.  Ron Paul the same thing, old and too libertarian.  Palin will not run.  If Romney gets it he will choose McDonnell, imo. ( Going to see the gov Sat ;) )



TheRealMafoo said:
I would have rather seen Gore then Bush...

But I am not sure everyone is fully comprehending what Obama just said today.

He basically said I don't care about the form of government we have. I want to change the rule because I think the people would not mind.

I have never seen in my life a sitting president say such things (and mean it). He did not try and finagle the healthcare bill into whatever constraints are needed for reconciliation. He doesn't care.

He wants this passed because he thinks it's what's best, so the hell with the rules. Just do whatever it takes.

This man should be impeached. He has no business being the leader of this country.

He ended it when talking about reconciliation with "that's what elections are for" if voters don't like his means.

No, that's what jail is for Mr Obama. You don't just get to do whatever you want because you think it's popular.

Fuck I am pissed!

Your anger is a result of misinformation from an unreliable source.

here are key excerpts from the wiki


In the United States Senate, the Senate rules permit a senator, or a series of senators, to speak for as long as they wish and on any topic they choose, unless 3/5 of the Senate (60 out of 100 Senators "duly chosen and sworn") http://rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=RuleXXII  brings debate to a close by invoking cloture. According to the Supreme Court ruling in U.S. v. Ballin
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=144&invol=1

 (1892), changes to Senate rules could however be achieved by a simple majority

    The constitution empowers each house to determine its rules of proceedings. [...] The power to make rules is not one which once exercised is exhausted. It is a continuous power, always subject to be exercised by the house, and, within the limitations suggested, absolute and beyond the challenge of any other body or tribunal.

    The constitution provides that 'a majority of each [house] shall constitute a quorum to do business.' In other words, when a majority are present the house is in a position to do business. Its capacity to transact business is then established, created by the mere presence of a majority, and does not depend upon the disposition or assent or action of any single [144 U.S. 1, 6] member or fraction of the majority present. All that the constitution requires is the presence of a majority, and when that majority are present the power of the house arises.

Nevertheless, the current Senate rules state that affirmative votes from two-thirds of the Senators present and voting are required for future rule changes. Despite this written requirement, the possibility exists that the filibuster could be changed by majority vote, using the so-called nuclear option, also called the "constitutional option" for political reasons and because of its roots in constitutional majoritarianism; that is, the Ballin decision.

The term "Nuclear Option" really refers to this:

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of having Vice President Dick Cheney, as President of the Senate, rule from the chair that a filibuster on judicial nominees was inconsistent with the constitutional grant of power to the president to name judges with the advice and consent of the Senate (interpreting "consent of the Senate" to mean "consent of a simple majority of Senators," not "consent under the Senate rules"). Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, had named the plan the "nuclear option."  Republican leaders preferred to use the term "constitutional option", although opponents and some supporters of the plan continued to use "nuclear option".

On May 23, 2005, a group of fourteen senators was dubbed the Gang of 14, consisting of seven (spineless) Democrats and seven Republicans. The seven (spineless) Democrats promised not to filibuster Bush's nominees except under "extraordinary circumstances," while the seven Republicans promised to oppose the nuclear option unless they thought a nominee was being filibustered that was not under "extraordinary circumstances". Specifically, the (spineless) Democrats promised to stop the filibuster on Priscilla Owen, Janice Rogers Brown, and William H. Pryor, Jr., who had all been filibustered in the Senate before. In return, the Republicans would stop the effort to ban the filibuster for judicial nominees. "Extraordinary circumstances" was not defined in advance. The term was open for interpretation by each Senator, but the Republicans and (bend me over the table "moderate") Democrats would have had to agree on what it meant if any nominee were to be blocked.

 

If the filibuster were used in 1964  as it is now then we wouldn't have the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Breitbart is nothing more than a corporate propogandist and a political vandal.

You're being used to advance a corporatist agenda.



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halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
psrock said:
halogamer1989 said:
@PSRock Mitt Romney or John Thune

Good luck with that.

As bad as Obama is supposingly doing, he's still more popular than any of these guys. The most popular Republican is a retard who writes notes in hands, knows nothing about reality and seriously needs to shut the fuck up. The Republican party need a leader, someone sane, I havent seen that person yet.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html +2.3 on the disapproval.  If the election were held today OH, FL, VA, NC, and the MW states the Ferengi won would turn red.  Romney has a 39/24 spread with wide margins of indies going GOP.  Palin is not the most popular with ~50+% of GOP support against her.

Romney, the guy fighting on the plane, will NEVER be president of the United States.

Think about it for one second

Obama according to you guys is horrible as a president, needs to be impeached, country in bad debt, bad economy, done nothing, pushing health care on people while no one wants it, he needs to be replaced.

47.8 approval rating.

 

52.9% 2008 returns.  The One would lose with 47.8% without some akin to a 1992 plurality.

This country goes back and forth, you should know better, go look at Bush before the second terms, he was behind until the election and won. The Republican needs a star and the best they can offer is a retard.

Ind vote psrock, ind vote.  Once you change that demo's mind, it is hard to change back.  A lot of this is going to be 2010 results.  Right now the GOP wins indies on a 2:1+ margin.  They will vote the same way in 2012 if anti-incumbent fever continues past the midterms (it will).  Btw, I mentioned Romney and Thune.  They are not Palin.  Thune beat inc. Daschle if you'll remember.  Romney won in a deep blue state.

Hopefully these two are your nominees. Hopefully.

Possibly, Romney is running.  Pawlenty is as well.  Thune idk.  Haley Barbour maybe but he will not win.  Ron Paul the same thing, old and too libertarian.  Palin will not run.  If Romney gets it he will choose McDonnell, imo. ( Going to see the gov Sat ;) )

Funny thing= Palin runs, she will beat Romney worst than Obama.



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11/20/09 04:25 makingmusic476 Warning Other (Your avatar is borderline NSFW. Please keep it for as long as possible.)
adriane23 said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Alright, this was 25% substantive discussion and 75% complaining, repetition, and sound bites. Oh well Obama, at least you tried.....

To pass something around 75% of America is against.

Using your calculation, lets say 75% of Americans (The ones that don't care) have decent health insurance and 25% (The ones that care) don't have insurance. That's a lot of people without insurance because a small percentage of alot is still alot. If the 25% that don't have insurance develop a chronic disease/ailment that is too expensive to pay for treatment out of pocket, they go to the ER when their medical condition gets life threatening. They now have a medical bill that they can't afford and is much higher than what it would've been if they had health insurance to pay a portion of the cost to treat their initial symptoms before they progressed. The unpaid medical bills create a burden on the hospital and the hospital is forced to increase fees and cut back on care and labor, ultimately decreasing the quality of healthcare for anyone that isn't wealthy.


A) It's not my calculation. It's poll numbers. B) It doesn't break down like that. Most of those people are actually against a bill that forces them to get healthcare or pay giant fines believe it or not.

A) My bad, let me re-phrase it then, "to use the calculation you posted on here."

 

B) You mean to say most of those people are against a bill they THINK forces them to get healthcare or pay giant fines....


Your missing the point... many of the 75% who don't care... are actually poor people who see the Obama plan for what it is... a bad plan that will make things worse. The people supporting it are mostly people who have NO IDEA what being poor is or what being without health insurance is about. It's beng pushed by well meaning ignorant people who are proposing a plan that will only make things worse for everybody across the board.

Do they really? I grew up poor and excluding the people I work with, 90% of the people I know are under the national poverty level. I don't know anyone that's poor and disagrees with healthcare reform. My uncle has to skip Chemo treatments because he can't always afford the doctor visit because he has shitty health insurance. Most of my coworkers are upper middle class and the majority of them diagree with healthcare reform.

Disagrees with THIS healthcare reform.  Not healthcare reform... this plan... which is a very poor one... and guess what I know poor people too... informed poor people know less who've studied the issue.

Let me ask you something... how many pages of the 1017 page proposal have you read?

You didn't even know that people are forced to have healthcare under this bill.  How many people do you know that don't have healthcare say they can't afford healthcare?

I know a lot... people who don't even go with medicare because they can't afford the very minimal payments and who try to support children on a part time 9 dollar an hour job.



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hey ninja while your at it look up the following: Blue Dog Coalition and legislative ping-pong. The GOP and the "evil corporate boogie monster" have done very little. In fact, most have been supporting the h.c. reform deal, AMA and pharma in particular.



SciFiBoy said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Kasz216 said:
adriane23 said:
Alright, this was 25% substantive discussion and 75% complaining, repetition, and sound bites. Oh well Obama, at least you tried.....

To pass something around 75% of America is against.

Using your calculation, lets say 75% of Americans (The ones that don't care) have decent health insurance and 25% (The ones that care) don't have insurance. That's a lot of people without insurance because a small percentage of alot is still alot. If the 25% that don't have insurance develop a chronic disease/ailment that is too expensive to pay for treatment out of pocket, they go to the ER when their medical condition gets life threatening. They now have a medical bill that they can't afford and is much higher than what it would've been if they had health insurance to pay a portion of the cost to treat their initial symptoms before they progressed. The unpaid medical bills create a burden on the hospital and the hospital is forced to increase fees and cut back on care and labor, ultimately decreasing the quality of healthcare for anyone that isn't wealthy.


A) It's not my calculation. It's poll numbers. B) It doesn't break down like that. Most of those people are actually against a bill that forces them to get healthcare or pay giant fines believe it or not.

A) My bad, let me re-phrase it then, "to use the calculation you posted on here."

 

B) You mean to say most of those people are against a bill they THINK forces them to get healthcare or pay giant fines....


Your missing the point... many of the 75% who don't care... are actually poor people who see the Obama plan for what it is... a bad plan that will make things worse. The people supporting it are mostly people who have NO IDEA what being poor is or what being without health insurance is about. It's beng pushed by well meaning ignorant people who are proposing a plan that will only make things worse for everybody across the board.

I think I get it, youre saying that even if people are in favour of socialised healthcare, the current bill proposal wont work for them?

you need to elaborate on that a bit more, what is wrong with this bill from the POV of someone who wants socialised healthcare?

Indeed.  Most people in the country want healthcare reform... most do not want this bill... in fact most want Congress to start entirely over... this is why the Republicans have been pushing the "Lets start over" and "lets have cameras in the negotiations like you originally wanted" cards.   The reconciliation isn't to stop republicans even though that's how it's spun... it's being used to twist the arm of moderate democrats who wouldn't of passed the thing even with a philibuster proof senate... a lot of unions aren't even for it... and they're usually pro universal healthcare. 

 

I could go into a big list rattling off reasons why people are against it... but I think the easier way to explain it is vs the UK plan which you are familiar with.

In the UK plan, the government negotiates with it's union of doctors what it pays for.

In the US plan, the government will give vouchers and tax breaks to people to pay their premiums.

It's setting up a big buerocracy that isn't really going to have the power to change anything.

We're going to create a giant health exchange... which will be the equivlent to one of those websites auto insurance companies have... but ours is going to cost BILLIONS.


This is something people could just do for themselves mind you, get quotes from multiple insurance companies... but we're going to create an exchange to do it for billions of dollars... for got knows why.  It's this that is being banked on to be the be all and end all of lowering prices and increasing coverage... and it's something that people could already do themsleves with little effort.

 

The bill is a few very good ideas wrapped around a couple DISASTEROUS ideas without enough price controls... and spending that is entirely unnessisary... instead relying on hope that prices will drop without changing anything to force prices to drop.

 

The government NEEDS power to negotiate with the markets if they're going to go socialized... but instead they plan to go more socialized but leave the prices up to the free market.

 

Imagine the UK trying to pay for everyones health insurance without being able to negotaite what the health insurance or any procedures cost.



TheRealMafoo said:
I would have rather seen Gore then Bush...

But I am not sure everyone is fully comprehending what Obama just said today.

He basically said I don't care about the form of government we have. I want to change the rule because I think the people would not mind.

I have never seen in my life a sitting president say such things (and mean it). He did not try and finagle the healthcare bill into whatever constraints are needed for reconciliation. He doesn't care.

He wants this passed because he thinks it's what's best, so the hell with the rules. Just do whatever it takes.

This man should be impeached. He has no business being the leader of this country.

He ended it when talking about reconciliation with "that's what elections are for" if voters don't like his means.

No, that's what jail is for Mr Obama. You don't just get to do whatever you want because you think it's popular.

Fuck I am pissed!

Some of those whom we have looked back as the best of presidents had similar attitudes. Jackson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, the other Roosevelt, and Johnson were all kinda "fuck you, i do what i want."

 

Quite honestly, it's the only way to get stuff done in American politics sometimes. Stuff like strong-arm backroom tactics and strange Supreme Court rulings are sometimes necessary. It's an incredibly murky field, of course, but it is necessary.



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Kasz216 said:
SciFiBoy said:

I think I get it, youre saying that even if people are in favour of socialised healthcare, the current bill proposal wont work for them?

you need to elaborate on that a bit more, what is wrong with this bill from the POV of someone who wants socialised healthcare?

Indeed.  Most people in the country want healthcare reform... most do not want this bill... in fact most want Congress to start entirely over... this is why the Republicans have been pushing the "Lets start over" and "lets have cameras in the negotiations like you originally wanted" cards.   The reconciliation isn't to stop republicans even though that's how it's spun... it's being used to twist the arm of moderate democrats who wouldn't of passed the thing even with a philibuster proof senate... a lot of unions aren't even for it... and they're usually pro universal healthcare. 

 

I could go into a big list rattling off reasons why people are against it... but I think the easier way to explain it is vs the UK plan which you are familiar with.

In the UK plan, the government negotiates with it's union of doctors what it pays for.

In the US plan, the government will give vouchers and tax breaks to people to pay their premiums.

It's setting up a big buerocracy that isn't really going to have the power to change anything.

We're going to create a giant health exchange... which will be the equivlent to one of those websites auto insurance companies have... but ours is going to cost BILLIONS.


This is something people could just do for themselves mind you, get quotes from multiple insurance companies... but we're going to create an exchange to do it for billions of dollars... for got knows why.  It's this that is being banked on to be the be all and end all of lowering prices and increasing coverage... and it's something that people could already do themsleves with little effort.

 

The bill is a few very good ideas wrapped around a couple DISASTEROUS ideas without enough price controls... and spending that is entirely unnessisary... instead relying on hope that prices will drop without changing anything to force prices to drop.

okay, thank you, now I understand much better, I can understand why people wouldnt like that, is that what Obama originally wanted to do? or is it something people have forced him into?



halogamer1989 said:
hey ninja while your at it look up the following: Blue Dog Coalition and legislative ping-pong. The GOP and the "evil corporate boogie monster" have done very little. In fact, most have been supporting the h.c. reform deal, AMA and pharma in particular.

The GOP supports the current Senate HCR bill for the same reason most people oppose it, because of the individual mandate without a reasonable public option.  With the inclusion of a nonprofit public plan, the approval of HCR goes over 60% on average.



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