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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Multiple Disc Argument - It just doesn’t work for anyone.

The disk swapping isn't that annoying its years later when you lose one disk, but have the rest. I lost disk three for final fantasy 7 after letting my brother borrow it. Now every time I think of downloading it on psn I think well I have the first 2/3 of the game here, but now I can't finish it unless I pay again. That is what can be really annoying with multiple disks.



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Jordahn said:

I’ve seen some of the recent debate over which is the better multi-platform (Xbox 360 and PS3) version, using the number of DVD's to a single Blu-ray as a factor of argument on this site.  Sadly, it has been blown out of proportion for the most part, and there is a reality everyone needs to face.

  

It’s just a fact that one disc as opposed to several is a convenience no matter how small of a convenience it is.  And do some blow it out of proportion?  Yes.  But what’s even more annoying is the “we’ve changed discs before back in the past” argument.  It’s now 2010, NOT 1995.  Developers and gamer have the option of Blu-ray NOW as opposed to multiple CD’s IN THE PAST as the only viable options aside from cartridges.  ANY of you who use the “we’ve changed discs before” argument is ONLY making excuses when a PS3 version of a game has the convenience of one Blu-ray.  And not everyone thinks that changing discs is a big idea when one disc is still preferable.  But whether you have that choice or not (usually due to console ownership or lack thereof), it’s still an advantage of convenience.  Did changing discs bothered me on Final Fantasy VII when I first bough my PSOne?  Never did.  Would I have preferred not to change them out now that I look back?  Of course if it could have been helped.  But since it was fine to switch CD’s back two generations ago maybe we should have stuck with CD's for last generation and NOT have used DVD’s while continuing to use CD’s now?  See, I didn’t think so.  In principle, how much simpler can than be?  When the content is practically the came, the less discs the better.

You're right that it's a inconvenience but it's such a minor one that it doesn't even matter.

Take Mass Effect 2 for example, I had to change discs twice in a little over 30 hours of play.  When the little screen came up prompting me to change discs, my game wasn't ruined, I walked up, inserted the new disc, and went on.  It didn't break any kind of immersion, it just meant I had to get up off the couch lets say every 10-ish hours of gameplay.  Considering most games last 8-12 hours, that's fine with me.

Now if I had to change discs every 4 or so hours, that would bother me, but every 10+ hours, I really don't care.  It's just completely insignificant.

I was actually more annoyed because someone told me if you installed both discs you didn't have to change discs at all.  I wasn't annoyed that I swapped discs, I was mainly annoyed that I waited to play the game until I installed both discs.  If I had known I was going to have to change anyways, I would have just installed the 2nd disc later.



RVDondaPC said:
Lord Flashheart said:

How does setting up your own line contradict my opinion? I never mentioned that until the post you just quoted which wasn't the post you questioned originally and doesn't contradict my opinion in any way shape or fashion. Not even a little forget about completely.

My opinion is DVD's are cheaper to make than BD. As stated many times.
When making each product it's cheaper whether outsourced or done internally to make DVD's than it is to make Blu-rays. The more sold the cheaper still.
Sure the more BD's made drives the cost down but that's only for BD's and also works the same way for DVD's.
All evidence shown so far backs me up that DVD's are cheaper to make than BDs.
And some publishers do manufacture their own disc. Nintendo for certain markets or SEGA. So doesn't that contradict your point?

Sorry, I may have trouble understanding you because your English grammar is rather confusing, but from the first post I quoted you in you stated that, "On a large scale producing BD will cost less but for smaller less well known games that aren't going to sell as well as Uncharted it will impact them more than making the game on DVD9." From that it makes it seem as if you are saying that only producing a large amount of copies of a game will make BD cheaper but if it's only a small amount of games than DVD will be cheaper. To me the only way that is possible is if you are factoring in fixed costs such as setting up a factory line to manufacture the BD's. Well if you knew that publishers don't have their own factories because they outsource the manufacturing to manufacturers, you would know that either BD or DVD would be cheaper regardless of how many copies a game sells because there is no fixed costs to set up a factory line since the manufacturer has already covered that. 

It doesn't matter that you think DVD is cheaper or if you thought that BD was cheaper to produce. The fact that you made a distinction based on how many copies would be sold shows that you are trying to factor in fixed costs that don't exist. 

Also Nintendo and Sega don't manufacture their own discs. You probably think Apple Manufactures their own computers too and that all McDonald restaurants are owned my McDonalds. Just because the name is on it doesn't mean they built it. Publishers/developers create the content of the game and put it on the disc and then they send it to a manufacturer and they make all the copies of the game. It wouldn't make sense for a publisher to have their own factories because one month they may need 5 million discs printed and then the next month they may only need 2 million. Then the next month they may need 10 million discs printed. How do you set up a factory for that that is run efficient? You can't. So they outsource it to manufacturers who can can juggle the demands of many different manufacturer's and therefore they can be much more efficient and reduce the average cost of making a DVD, BD, CD, etc. There may be exclusive manufacturer's that only print games from a certain publisher but that doesn't mean that the publisher owns the manufacturer. 

Oh god another internet grammar nazi.
I'll say what I always say to you  Cambridge taught Oxford English professors. This is the internet not the foreword to the complete works of Shakespear. People post in a rush, in a seconds language or just enough for people to get the message but as you lack the ability to understand that I'll try to spell it out to you. in crayons if i can find some.

I'm talking in general not absolutes like most people in the world. Are you telling me that it isn't usually cheaper to mass produce something?
To the bolded. I was talking to someone else who was saying it was always cheaper to make BD's than DVDs. Did you read all that before you interjected yourself into this? I was saying that if a game isn't going to sell that many on BD then the cost would be even higher. Higher than it would be if the same amout was made for DVD9 due to the whole, the more you order the cheaper it becomes and how long DVD has been out. I was saying that DVD's are cheaper to make than BD's in similar quantities. I have said that many times.

You have an obsession with setting up production lines. Ignore that. In fact don't. Are you telling me that if you have to factor in the cost of setting up a DVD line against setting up a BD line the DVD line wouldn't be cheaper given how long DVDs have been on the market and the market share it has, how much it has sold and how long they have had to refine the tech to drive cost down? Sure it might not be an absolute but in general.
COMPARED TO EACH OTHER. Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend that. I'm not talking about if they are cheap to make but compared to each other which would be cheapest and all the evidence people have produced on here backs me up.

Do you think I'm saying it it's expensive to make BD's? I'm not I'm saying it's cheaper to make DVDs than it is to make BDs. I might have said that somewhere in this thread I'll see if I can dig up a quote somewhere.

Please tell me where I insinuated that every new game made they had to factor in the initial cost of setting up a production line?
You are seeing a lot of things in what I'm saying that aren't there.

PS your grammar is perfect



I tried looking for a quote where I had said that it's cheaper to make DVDs than it is to make BDs in this thread but I couldn't find any.



dunno001 said:
Icyedge said:
Holesome said:

IceEdge: I was thinking your response was way worse than my "ranting post" as you offered no detail, no counter argument, and no value to the post whatsoever.

I used that structure to provoke a response for which I got.

Reading into and between all the lines of what I wrote is the point that a very few games now and in the near future can or need take advantage of extra space that BR has to offer.  Just because one media has more space does not automatically mean that that is the better solution for the vast majority of the population.  The case will most definately be more valid 1 or 2 years down the road.  Until then extra space is not necessarily the deciding factor as to what media and platform to choose.

 


Normally I always explain my thinking, but im not loosing my time arguing with an alternate account who post bullshit to provoke a response (thanks for saying it).

What about the rest of us who want to know what you think is so bad about it? While I disagree with some of the points of it, they at least tried giving reasons to support what they think. If you disagree, say why, rather than calling the post out for being bad.

@Holesome: As you may have read, I did say I have some issues. You bring up multiple languages as a point. I personally have a preference for a language, as do you, apparently. However, what if they only put 1 language on, and it wasn't your preferred language? Space being used for more languages is a benefit- we can hear it (or read it) however we want to. As an anime fan, I've seen the dub vs sub wars, and that just boils down to language. The language isn't necessarily an excuse to play it again, rather, it exists to let you play it how you want to.

Space... I agree with you in that it leads to a lot of inefficiencies by merely having the space with no plans to use it. (Back in the cartridge day, that was a foolish thing to do.) And yes, most, if not all, games today do not need a full BR-50. If you really think that's not enough space for your game in today's tech, then you don't know how to program efficiently. (Though I think you agree with me on this.) Where I differ is the years later, and the DVD still being sufficient. HD resolutions, even compressed, take up a fair amount of space. A BD-25 or 2 DVD-9s should be sufficient in my eyes for most, if not all, games. I would prefer if things could stay on a single DVD-9, but technology is not permitting that.

Well, the guy was posting to provoke a response, he even said it himself. With 8 post and posting to provoke, well im not gonna explain further. Find it strange that you defend him instead of me, thx a lot!



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Holesome said:
Did anyone think that having extra storage space makes for lazy development? Absolutely. If developers have the space then they are less likely to think about optimization. 1

Did anyone think that Sony developers will use the extra space ON PURPOSE, like having uncompressed audio and duplicate data for performace reasons, and to (in part) be able to justify the BR player and to try to one-up the 360 in the consumer's eyes? Absolutely! Is this necessary or required? NO. 2

Some extra features such as multi-language is a nice option but NOT necessary to most consumers. I have so, so many movies that are multi-language and I NEVER watch the movies using the second language tracks. So, for the most part there is little to no value to pad the games with such content. 3

Did anyone think that having more space often makes developers try and fill it with assets which take more time to develope which costs developers more to produce the games? Still to this day the DVD is about the size that holds the right number of assets and keeps development budgets in check. 4

With the exception of ONLY a handfull of games, and almost all of the 1st party, the hundreds of other games have NO requirement for large amounts of storage space at this point in time or possibly years into the future. 5

Now if I had two consoles from the same company, one with DVD and one with BR I'd choose the BR disk. Having said that, having multi-disk DVD or BR is not a significant enough reason itself to choose one console over another for a particular game. At this point, I would likely choose one version over another for more important reasons such as which console is my "primary console", do I want achievements vs trophies, or which console would be more convenient for the rest of my family to use it on?
ie. only one PS3 in my house yet every room has a 360 for gaming, media, TV, etc. Which console are my friends going to be playing the game on?
6
Does the BR offer content that makes any difference at all for my environment?
ie. I don't use or care about 7.1 surround sound and likely NEVER will. I only have 720p and/or 1080p quality is not noticable at all on my equipment so it makes NO difference. 7
Theoretically in a multi-console house with multi-disk DVD games I can have two consoles running the game at the same time (if offset by one disk) which would be a bonus for my kids rather than having to wait until I finish the game?
8

Think about this everyone. 9

Actually ill afford the 15 minutes to explain, as I would have did with a regular poster.

1. Sure they will all be lazy, we know that developers never care about the final product, and that they will only use more space because they are too lazy too optimize, thats common sense right?

2. Duplicate data? for what we knows its only bethesda with oblivion in the early days of PS3 that stated having to use duplicate data to work around the slower load speed of their PS3 version. Uncompressed audio is only to feel a disc space? I thought it was a nice features when you have a 7.1 surround sound. Adding side quest in a jRPG or adding a making of film in a game like uncharted 2 is not necassry or required, your right on that. But its nice no?

3. You know what, america and english language is the center of the world, the sun revolute around it, extra language has little to no value right?

4. Theres developer that makes tons of cash and easily can afford a longer developement cycle and bigger asset. But they need to release their game on DVD, so how do you know they wouldnt have done more.

5. Your contradicting yourself you know. Its obvious why its only 1st party titles that use more spaces.

6. Finally something that makes sense, preferring a console, interface, controller is very legetimate. And yes it can easily surpass the type of disc it uses.

7. The fact that you dont use the advantages of blu-ray doesnt cancel the advantages. What about I tell you im not connected to Xbox live hence Xbox live makes no difference. Im not fanboy enough to claim anything like that tho.

8. Very very good point in favor of multi-disc.

9. Well other than thinking your here only to provoke others, theres little to think.

 

CASSÉ

 



This is really a pointless thread. Of course one disk is 'more convenient'. However, XBOX360 doesn't use blu ray, so unless you want every game to be dumbed down to 1 disk, then stop arguing over disk swapping. All you're really arguing over is 'XBOX360 vs PS3'.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Holesome said:
Did anyone think that having extra storage space makes for lazy development? Absolutely. If developers have the space then they are less likely to think about optimization. optimize what? assets? textures? so how do they go about that? how do they optimize 720p ot 1080p? tone it down? then it wouldnt be hd now would it? compression? what for? if you got the space, use it, improves loading speed to.

Did anyone think that Sony developers will use the extra space ON PURPOSE, like having uncompressed audio and duplicate data for performace reasons, and to (in part) be able to justify the BR player and to try to one-up the 360 in the consumer's eyes? Absolutely! Is this necessary or required? NO. so, why make it hd if they can just lower the res? they should just stick to cds right? and lets all play ps1 quality games

Some extra features such as multi-language is a nice option but NOT necessary to most consumers. I have so, so many movies that are multi-language and I NEVER watch the movies using the second language tracks. So, for the most part there is little to no value to pad the games with such content. you think multiple language caters to  english speaking americans only? what's its use? maybe a nice chunk of the worlds population cant speak english and or have a hard time following the language and would rather play the game in their native language?

Did anyone think that having more space often makes developers try and fill it with assets which take more time to develope which costs developers more to produce the games? Still to this day the DVD is about the size that holds the right number of assets and keeps development budgets in check. budgets are kept in check by management and not disk space. i can make a 10hr movie using a handy cam and spend less than what they spent on avater, yet avatar is only over 2hrs long...hmmm...your reasoning sucks.

With the exception of ONLY a handfull of games, and almost all of the 1st party, the hundreds of other games have NO requirement for large amounts of storage space at this point in time or possibly years into the future. ok, enjoy your ugly games. while we enjoy games like mgs4, gow3, me2 and all the other games that need more than 1 disc.

Now if I had two consoles from the same company, one with DVD and one with BR I'd choose the BR disk. Having said that, having multi-disk DVD or BR is not a significant enough reason itself to choose one console over another for a particular game. At this point, I would likely choose one version over another for more important reasons such as which console is my "primary console", do I want achievements vs trophies, or which console would be more convenient for the rest of my family to use it on? so, your family = > world?
ie. only one PS3 in my house yet every room has a 360 for gaming, media, TV, etc. Which console are my friends going to be playing the game on? so, what multiple disc game do you play online with your friends with?
Does the BR offer content that makes any difference at all for my environment?
ie. I don't use or care about 7.1 surround sound and likely NEVER will. I only have 720p and/or 1080p quality is not noticable at all on my equipment so it makes NO difference.
Theoretically in a multi-console house with multi-disk DVD games I can have two consoles running the game at the same time (if offset by one disk) which would be a bonus for my kids rather than having to wait until I finish the game? ok, so while you play disc 1 of ffxiii, your kids can start on disc2? gotcha..no, wait, you have to  finish disc1 first...oh, you mean after you play disc1? dosnt that still count as, wait for you to finish?

Think about this everyone.


yes, do yourself a favor and follow your advise, think first man before posting such rubish