BladeOfGod said: Aha

If you see a guy running next to a car, and the car goes a bit faster, do you say the car is "outperforming" the running guy?

 

Good for the PS3, anyone that doesn't like the facts in here just don't post!

@ kowenicki

I understand you don't like my opinions, but you will be unable to change them. As a tech enthusiast I find the PS3 the most interesting device currently available on the market and have been vividly following its techical progress. Like development techniques used in games like Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2.

The userbase size is less crucial for me than top class software, although without a solid userbase the latter won't happen but the PS3 already has a solid userbase and top talents working on top content.

RolStoppable said: MikeB said: RolStoppable said: MikeB said: Technical talents. He's an engineer. The Amiga was the technically most amazing computer ever released for its time. The Lynx and 3DO were very advanced consoles, but great technicals mainly enhance potentials. To realize optimal market potential you need good managers, resources and advertising in addition to technical talents. Wait, now it's getting confusing. According to you, RJ Mical is a talented engineer. But he also needs good managers, resources and advertising in addition to his technical talents to realize optimal market potential for the products he is working on. So which of these three things does Sony lack? None. I think I understand your logic, like for example the PS2 and Wii outperforming the PS3 saleswise early on. It usually happens a low spec PC outperforms a high spec top grade gaming PC on the market. It's not like the cheap PC is a better product than the expensive PC. Customers will more easily buy cheaper products and decide it's just good enough (even when of course preferring a better PC). Does this mean high spec PCs shouldn't be made? Of course not. We would like to see the market advance. Too bad that the console market works different than the PC market. The console that outperforms the competition early on continues to do so until the end of the generation and the margin continues to grow. The PS3 isn't going to outperform the Wii later on in the lifecycle. Besides, the console market doesn't advance by high specs. It does by offering more entertaining games and the market decides about that, not the companies. Also, the PS3 was never intended to sell solely to the tech enthusiasts. Sony execs said on several occasions that they want to be in first place or that they intend to sell 150m PS3s. The PS3 was supposed to sell like the PS2, if not even better.

There are similaries, new and cheaper models and new features are regularly introduced. Good progress and more appeal to a wider audience.

A few years ago I said I anticipated a slimline PS3 by 2009, the sales increase I anticipated actually happened (some called me crazy!). Wii sales as expected are down year over year. The PS3 outsold the XBox 360 last December in Microsoft's main by far strongest performing market. IMO there are plenty more market oppertunities for the PS3 in the future. I anticipate 2010 to be an even bigger year for the PS3 than 2009 was.

RolStoppable said: MikeB said: RolStoppable said: Too bad that the console market works different than the PC market. The console that outperforms the competition early on continues to do so until the end of the generation and the margin continues to grow. The PS3 isn't going to outperform the Wii later on in the lifecycle. Besides, the console market doesn't advance by high specs. It does by offering more entertaining games and the market decides about that, not the companies. Also, the PS3 was never intended to sell solely to the tech enthusiasts. Sony execs said on several occasions that they want to be in first place or that they intend to sell 150m PS3s. The PS3 was supposed to sell like the PS2, if not even better. There are similaries, new and cheaper models and new features are regularly introduced. Good progress and more appeal to a wider audience. A few years ago I said I anticipated a slimline PS3 by 2009, the sales increase I anticipated actually happened (some called me crazy!). Wii sales as expected are down year over year. The PS3 outsold the XBox 360 last December in Microsoft's main by far strongest performing market. IMO there are plenty more market oppertunities for the PS3 in the future. I anticipate 2010 to be an even bigger year for the PS3 than 2009 was. No, this is incorrect. It's only that way since this generation and not a general rule of the console market. More importantly, the current market leader doesn't follow this trend and is still in line with the dynamics found in previous generations. If the market leader doesn't do a certain thing, then that thing can't be applied as the standard for the market. Rather, the constant introduction of new and cheaper models highlights how flawed the business plan of the PS3 was and maybe still is. Regarding your predictions, they are almost always spot on. At least those you keep mentioning in your posts. Of course you would have to anticipate 2010 to be a bigger year for the PS3, because one of your predictions is that the PS3 will average 15m units sold per year over the course of the next seven years. Going off this prediction, what do you think in which year will the PS3 beat the Wii in yearly sales?

I was talking about this generation and I don't think it's a flawed approach at all. For example the original Nintendo DS did not interest me one bit due to its form factor. I think the redesign appealed to far more people, including me. I'm also more interested in the PSP Go for the long run. Of course form factor matters more in the handheld market.

It was already known that Sony would gradually lower the PS3 entry pricing with technological/production advancements, it's not that different from Sony's PS2 approach with regard to this yet happened a little faster as the PS3 was designed based on the latest and greatest components available at the time (expensive, but coming down in cost rapidly with mass production). Personally I also applaud new options like stereoscopic 3D and the Arc controller, not that different from the PS2's introduction of the Eyetoy, etc. Games like Eye Sports and Eye Play probably probably inspired Nintendo as well. Nintendo also lowered its pricing, released Wii fit / motion plus and new black models, etc. New this gen is the introduction of ever more storage space for entry models.

Regarding beating the Wii in yearly sales, I don't consider that to be crucial. Sony should run its own race, it's not like the Wii is really impacting PS3 3rd party support that much and most of the truly great and promising titles are coming from its first parties. If everything goes as I expect, then the Wii will see a high definition replacement before the PS3 beats the Wii in sales. Probably it will be a technically weaker console than the PS3 in most regards and thus I think will still be a current gen sales battle. The Wii I view more as a late last gen console, so from my perspective maybe its end install base should rather be compared with the PS2 than the PS3. The PS3 will have helped to pave the way for a new more capable Nintendo console and if it's Wii compatible (and able to scale up) I will probably buy one myself!

MikeB said: @ kowenicki I understand you don't like my opinions, but you will be unable to change them. As a tech enthusiast I find the PS3 the most interesting device currently available on the market and have been vividly following its techical progress. Like development techniques used in games like Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2. The userbase size is less crucial for me than top class software, although without a solid userbase the latter won't happen but the PS3 already has a solid userbase and top talents working on top content.

Well now, you're the first tech enthusiast I've met who obsesses over 5yr old technology. The worlds moved on, but I guess you haven't - which probably explains the amiga fascination.

Hopefully this will calm down some fanboys.

sieanr said: MikeB said: @ kowenicki I understand you don't like my opinions, but you will be unable to change them. As a tech enthusiast I find the PS3 the most interesting device currently available on the market and have been vividly following its techical progress. Like development techniques used in games like Uncharted 2 and Killzone 2. The userbase size is less crucial for me than top class software, although without a solid userbase the latter won't happen but the PS3 already has a solid userbase and top talents working on top content. Well now, you're the first tech enthusiast I've met who obsesses over 5yr old technology. The worlds moved on, but I guess you haven't - which probably explains the amiga fascination.

First I think you miscalculate about 1 and a half year from release and secondly I wouldn't call it an obsession but rather a hobby. I stated before release I considered the PS3 to be ahead of its time technology (how many PC games for example take good advantage of Blu-Ray at this point? and no current general market PC x86 processor is able to top the Cell in terms of raw performance).

I'm a vivid supporter of optimised software. My roots lie within the Amiga community and have been active in the demoscene as well, I bought one in 1989, a system based on 4 year old technology by then (I was a preteen when the original Amiga was released), but much better than expensive latest PCs at the time for gaming, multi-media and various areas of productivity (and DOS was a horrible single tasking operating system).

Gaming example, PC gaming vs Amiga gaming in the 80s and early 90s (note various games exclusive to the Amiga were far more impressive than these examples):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cETl8PhUy_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4uwzNkUVE

From a technical perspective consoles are interesting because it makes sense to go full force with optimising software for them. PCs with their many different ever changing configurations and inefficient bloated OS is far harder to get the most of (as well as it's obsolete x86 architecture).

Before the PS3 launched it was clear to me it would took a while before we would get to see what the PS3 is truly capable of, but it was clear to me where this could lead to eventually. Ken did an amazing job with the general design.

MikeB wrote:

In that video good old Barbarian was compared, but despite the much better Amiga version an example of an Amiga exclusive game on an entry model Amiga 500 showed much better what the hardware was really capable of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCqLqj3QOEQ (by Terramarque)

Or take a look at Stardust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c35y_rBOrDY (By Bloodhouse)

Very impressive for mid 80s technology.

BTW Terramarque and Bloodhouse fused to from Housemarque, they are working on a new PS3 game and a 120 FPS stereoscopic 3D version of their excellent Super Stardust HD game.

Maybe if you (kowenicki) try to understand my roots you better understand my technical interest for the PS3.

RolStoppable said: MikeB said: RolStoppable said: No, this is incorrect. It's only that way since this generation and not a general rule of the console market. More importantly, the current market leader doesn't follow this trend and is still in line with the dynamics found in previous generations. If the market leader doesn't do a certain thing, then that thing can't be applied as the standard for the market. Rather, the constant introduction of new and cheaper models highlights how flawed the business plan of the PS3 was and maybe still is. Regarding your predictions, they are almost always spot on. At least those you keep mentioning in your posts. Of course you would have to anticipate 2010 to be a bigger year for the PS3, because one of your predictions is that the PS3 will average 15m units sold per year over the course of the next seven years. Going off this prediction, what do you think in which year will the PS3 beat the Wii in yearly sales? I was talking about this generation and I don't think it's a flawed approach at all. For example the original Nintendo DS did not interest me one bit due to its form factor. I think the redesign appealed to far more people, including me. I'm also more interested in the PSP Go for the long run. Of course form factor matters more in the handheld market. It was already known that Sony would gradually lower the PS3 entry pricing with technological/production advancements, it's not that different from Sony's PS2 approach with regard to this yet happened a little faster as the PS3 was designed based on the latest and greatest components available at the time (expensive, but coming down in cost rapidly with mass production). Personally I also applaud new options like stereoscopic 3D and the Arc controller, not that different from the PS2's introduction of the Eyetoy, etc. Games like Eye Sports and Eye Play probably probably inspired Nintendo as well. Nintendo also lowered its pricing, released Wii fit / motion plus and new black models, etc. New this gen is the introduction of ever more storage space for entry models. Regarding beating the Wii in yearly sales, I don't consider that to be crucial. Sony should run its own race, it's not like the Wii is really impacting PS3 3rd party support that much and most of the truly great and promising titles are coming from its first parties. If everything goes as I expect, then the Wii will see a high definition replacement before the PS3 beats the Wii in sales. Probably it will be a technically weaker console than the PS3 in most regards and thus I think will still be a current gen sales battle. The Wii I view more as a late last gen console, so from my perspective maybe its end install base should rather be compared with the PS2 than the PS3. The PS3 will have helped to pave the way for a new more capable Nintendo console and if it's Wii compatible (and able to scale up) I will probably buy one myself! It's common that handhelds get revised due to their nature. A better battery life or a better display improves the system significantly. The consumer experience improves. When it comes to home consoles a redesign usually benefits the manufacturer much more than the consumers, because there aren't any notable changes in the gaming experience. The machine is cheaper to produce and that's about it. A new TV would be a much bigger change to the gaming experience.

The advantages are usually more pronounced wth handhelds, like I said to agree.

But smaller form factor, more energy efficiency and other advancements (new OS features, harddrive upgrades and hardware expansions) is still interesting to many.

That's what I said.

It was need to remove the obsolete PS2 chips to introduce a much more efficient hardware design (motherboard). It makes much more sense to emulate the PS2 as the PS3 is very powerful. Of course Rome wasn't build in a day, I think they will release a PS2 emulator when available in the future.