The Last of Us Paradox

Who are the true Villains and Heroes of TLOU?!

Case for Joel...

 This man has been through quite a lot. From the onset of the Outbreak he lost the one most dear to him, his daughter. Yet if you take note to the situation, he had not lost her due to the infection, rather the actions of a frantic Human. This speaks leagues about the type of person Joel becomes. Yes, it is the infection that causes the problem, but it is the way humans react to the infected that becomes the true disease., and in turn the destruction of the Human race. 

Joel understands that Infected are a threat, but he doesn't hate them. It is people, the desperate and depraved, that he despises. It took him a while just to warm up to Ellie. After almost a Year of their travels together, their lives being place in each other's hands multiple times, he finally started to reconnect with someone.

So to him, the ordacity of Marlene, and the rest of the human race, to try and take that from him? Death on all their houses. This girl was innocent to the core. She never knew of the world that once was, Joel seemingly wanted nothing more but to finally give that to her by game's end. Does the well being of the many out weigh the very few? Joel begged to differ. He loved that little girl like his own, and nothing would come between them.

Yet how selfish of a conclusion was it too? Everyone could have benefited(except Ellie of course). All it would take is the one small sacrifice of an innocent life. Joel thought of nothing but his own desires, wants, and personal happiness. How different is he really than the soldier that had to make the executive decision of killing him and his daughter at the end? Or David who ran the group of Canibals? They  weight the situation of personal benefit superceded how it would effect others.

And then he lies to Ellie about what transpired, which many are quick to call Foal. Yet was he wrong to do so? Some go by the fantasy that "you don't lie to those you care about" mantra. I call BS. We most definitely lie to those we love/care. It is most commonly done because we care of the particular person's opinion of us and we don't want to dissappoint them. Other times it really is to protect them from things they might not be able to process.

The Case for Marlene......

This Woman was trapped in a tireless battle for survival. As leader of the Fireflies, she could see that the way everyone lived in the QZs(Quarentine Zones) was not actually "Living". She and her team aspired for more from humanity. So....when this ..."way out" shows itself, how could she not take it?

It is not as if the decision did not weight heavy on her too. She raised this girl. Loved her like her own. She was very close with the girl's parents and promised them that she would always keep them safe. How could she have known that the girl she chose to protect was the key to everything. So now, she is saddled with the question on what to do with this knowledge. The fate of humanity is teetering on the decision she makes. This is a lot of pressure for anyone.

So she tries to surpress all emotion, any personal opinion she may hold, in ode to the greater good. She would sacrifice her wants, her beliefs in hope of saving everyone. This is by far the most selfless a person can be. She made the toughest of decisions. It really reminds me of Torchwood:Children of Earth, when Jack sacrificed his own grandchild in effort to save the entire planet. Can we really fault her for this?

So let us discuss....

there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better

here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it?

bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it?

Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol

forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol

so you would let other people kill your daughter?

and does it save the world? really? humanity has survived for 20 years with the infection. it wont "save" the world, it will save lifes, it will make peoples lifes easier, it will make things much better. but the world isnt ending for it to be saved. 

bananaking21 said: forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol so you would let other people kill your daughter? and does it save the world? really? humanity has survived for 20 years with the infection. it wont "save" the world, it will save lifes, it will make peoples lifes easier, it will make things much better. but the world isnt ending for it to be saved.

I say this as a person who has no children so my view of it all is slightly skewed.

I see what you mean tho, and I suspect this is exactly what went through Joel's head. What would letting them experiment on and kill Ellie really had accomplished? Yes they would get insight to how the virus works and how Ellie was able to be immune. This does not mean that they would have assuredly been able to make a cure tho. No garrantee at all that it would even prove useful. Just a small glimmer of hope that it will. Is your loved one's death worth a hunch? Most definitely not.

forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol

If people are willing to kill a kid for their survival; they are not worth saving.  It is as simple as that.

EDIT: Also, it is not like if the kid lives then everyone instantaniously dies; so they are fine without killing her.

Heavenly_King said: forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol If people are willing to kill a kid for their survival; they are not worth saving.  It is as simple as that.

What if it is the kid from the Omen. He was the fucking Antichrist and I would crucify that one in a heart beat. I'm just saying its not as simple as "Whay? You would hurt a kid? EVIIIIILLLLL!!!!"

EDIT: Or lets use a more realistic scenario. Over in the Middle East they sometimes would use children as Walk-In Bombs. Soldiers were tasked with the perplexing delimma of taking out the kid before they took THEM out. I have a military buddy who personally had to execute such an order. It really messed with his head but he found that Enemy is your Enemy, and they will come in many shapes and sizes. Sometimes it is either you ro them....

forevercloud3000 said: Heavenly_King said: forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol If people are willing to kill a kid for their survival; they are not worth saving.  It is as simple as that. What if it is the kid from the Omen. He was the fucking Antichrist and I would crucify that one in a heart beat. I'm just saying its not as simple as "Whay? You would hurt a kid? EVIIIIILLLLL!!!!"

Sure it depends on the kid, but come on, dude! Who would think about killing Ellie if she is not a bad person at all; and she helps people too.  It is just stupid.   Sure if a kid tries to kill you; and he threathens your survival, and the one of your loved ones; THEN it is a whole different scenario.   

I edited my post in order to give it more context.

I think a lot of people want to paint Joel as evil or selfish because of his lack of concern for the rest of humanity, or as good or altruistic because of his desire to protect Ellie, but I personally don't like to talk about it in such black and white terms.  Joel is very much a product of his experience and environment.  He is essentially a broken, empty husk of a man after the 20 year time skip, who is barely hanging onto the desire to live.  Joel has seen the height of civilization for him (living a peaceful life with his daughter Sarah), and knows that it will never come back.

Joel's personal struggle in The Last of Us is his willingness to accept another person into his heart.  It takes a long time, but by the end of the story, Joel finally accepts Ellie, overcoming that barrier that he has held up seemingly since Sarah died.  With that said, I still think he is broken, exhibiting a clear lack of faith in humanity, and in this regard, he has remained static as a character, which I think makes the ending more powerful, since it hints at a potential conflict of worldviews with Ellie, who I think wants more out of life than just surviving.

Overall, I really enjoyed Joel's character.  Some people really despised his character (e.g., the guy who reviewed TLOU on gamespot), while some people sympathize with him, and the fact that there is discussion debating it says a lot about the writing for this game.  One thing I loved about his characterization is that it is consistent with both the story and gameplay.  All too often in video games the protagonist will profess a morality (i.e., it is bad to kill) that ultimately conflicts with their actions in the game (i.e., killing enemies), but for Joel, he is ruthless, and whether it is in a cutscene or an actual gameplay encounter, his moral compass is always consistent.

Heavenly_King said: forevercloud3000 said: Heavenly_King said: forevercloud3000 said: bananaking21 said: there i a thread discussing the ending already, but the more threads about the last of us the better here is a question, if people came and told you that they wanted to KILL your daughter to save other people, would you let them do it? Depends. Will her death save the world? :P lol If people are willing to kill a kid for their survival; they are not worth saving.  It is as simple as that. What if it is the kid from the Omen. He was the fucking Antichrist and I would crucify that one in a heart beat. I'm just saying its not as simple as "Whay? You would hurt a kid? EVIIIIILLLLL!!!!" Sure it depends on the kid, but come on, dude! Who would think about killing Ellie if she is not a bad person at all; and she helps people too.  It is just stupid.   Sure if a kid tries to kill you; and he threathens your survival, and the one of your loved ones; THEN it is a whole different scenario.    I edited my post in order to give it more context.

To be perfectly honest, I can't say I don't agree with Marlene's actions.

Many of those children with Bombs strapped to their chest in the middle east did not elect to be a weapon in someone else's war. It was something completely out of their control. Very similar to the fact Ellie had no say in being the key to the "cure". Nevertheless, they become the means to a end. They remain an obstacle to a rather dire goal.

It is all very Grey and I don't think you can idealogically fault either side. Both were attempting to do some level of good. Which in turn, I love in this story because one of the biggest issues I have with villainy in most games is that they are evil just because. Any real villain doesn't believe they are so, and through some method they are the good guy in THEIR way of thinking.