Ryuu96 said:
Why are you laying all the blame on Western Europe? America could have shown a backbone too, Poland, the Baltics and Nordics have all shown a bigger backbone than both Western Europe and America. And I do agree that Western Europe has been too cowardly but don't kid yourself that America has been any better; It was UK who broke the taboo of sending Western MBTs whilst America debated, it was UK and France who broke the taboo of sending Long-Range Missiles whilst America debated (and still didn't, for months), it was UK who was first to send ATGMs. To date, it is only Europe who have sent F-16s to Ukraine. It was UK and France who for months were literally begging America to allow Ukraine to use Storm Shadow/SCALP on Russia, missiles which both UK and France created and own, it was America blocking it and threatening to withhold key components or support to Ukraine if we allowed Ukraine to use our own damn missiles as we saw fit. In fact UK has been a stronger supporter of Ukraine than most since as far back as Crimea's invasion. America's too funded those bombs and bullets that killed Ukrainians and America's too did nothing for Ukrainians after Russia stole Crimea, despite the fact that United Kingdom and United States signed the Budapest Memorandum, that thing where Ukraine surrendered their nukes in exchange for security guarantees? Where were America's security guarantees? We have all failed Ukraine, not just Western Europe. My criticism is that America plundering Ukraine in exchange for protection is abhorrent, it's Mafia shit, it's extortion. Without America's support, Ukraine will fall, I don't like that Europe is not ready but the fact is they aren't ready. We should be supporting Ukraine simply because it's the right thing to do, not because we want to line our pockets which is what Trump wants to do. Fact is the majority of "aid" sent to Ukraine by America doesn't even leave America, it stays in America, it is used to build new weapons, it is used to resupply America's own military with newer equipment, whilst Ukraine receives the old stuff which was destined for scrap anyway, it provided American manufacturing jobs, it is already beneficial for America to support Ukraine but now they want more. Just take Russia's frozen assets FFS instead of pillaging Ukraine. It is the only potential one on the table because Trump is the one who made it the only potential one on the table, he could still support Ukraine without pillaging the country but since Donald Trump is a heartless bastard and I know there's no alterative, I would bitterly swallow that pill and hope that a future President rips that shit up. How the hell is Ukraine meant to recover post-war if someone is taking all their resources? America sure as shit won't help them, so it's on Europe to invest 100s of billions into restoring Ukraine is it? You say Western Europe ignored NATO funding for decades but the issue with complaints like these, people act like Eastern Europe doesn't exist, what about those countries? Do they not get any credit at all? Why is it all about Western Europe? Why should Eastern Europe suffer because of Western Europe AND America's lack of conviction? Poland actually spends more on their military by GDP % than America does and every Baltic Country already hits the 2% threshold, the UK also hits the 2% threshold. Nowadays 23/32 NATO countries hit the 2% threshold. Including Germany. Probably the only relevant ones left are Spain, Italy and France although I don't know how France which has the largest military in Europe isn't hitting 2%. But I've said time and time again that everyone should do more, nobody is doing enough aside from Poland, Baltics and Nordics. America is #16 in terms of support as a % of GDP which puts them below...
Europe as a whole has sent more aid than United States and that's not to mention the millions of war migrants we have to take in. The only countries I would refuse to criticise would be Poland, The Baltics and The Nordics. America and Western Europe both share blame, both could do a lot more. |
You're failing to mention anything done prior to February 2022.
Who kept buying natural gas from Russia and not embargoing when they invaded Crimea? Who kept making deals with Russia despite sovereign territory being taken over by the military?
Who prepared the Ukranians for the war with Russia between 2014 and 2022? How many NATO soldiers from Germany and France were preparing them to resist the Russians?
Who sold the Javelin missiles to Ukraine that hammered the Russian convoys around Cherniv, forcing the convoy back to Russia instead of taking Kyiv? Who trained their troops to NATO standards in the TDF before the invasion?
Without a doubt, Western Europe is doing its part now. But they sure as heck set the conditions for this to happen in the first place.
Here's some reading for you: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07135/SN07135.pdf
Page 3, Paragraph 2:
In contrast to the United States (see below), the UK Government ruled out
providing lethal arms to Ukraine at the time. Other European leaders,
including then German Chancellor Angela Merkel and then French President
Francois Hollande, also openly opposed arming Ukraine.10
Totally missing from the debate of % of support of Ukraine, is aid, or wholesale lack of it, to Ukraine prior to the outbreak of hostilities. Every nation has a ton of blood on their hands from this happening in the first place including the US. But given the information we know from the start of Euromaidan, its been pretty dang clear that Western Europe slept mostly at the wheel while the groundwork was prepared for the invasion.
I do agree that Eastern Europe is doing its part. There's only so much the baltics could have done, or Poland. But I think that its very, very shameful what the rest of the West did, especially Germany and France.
Also, there's the whole 2% of NATO spending that Trump screamed about for years prior to this. Europe decided to save a percentage point instead of having arms to help the Ukranians. Its wild to think that a partner across an entire ocean can be derided for only providing slightly less than half of the military aid to Ukraine, while the neighbors that have clearly been impacted to a great degree, decided to defund their militaries for well over a decade.
Again, I will cite the UK Parliments own paper. The information provided wherewithin is pretty damning of the European defense consensus prior to 2022.
To cite that paper again:
The US provided $2.5 billion in security assistance between 2014-2021. By comparison, the UK gifted 2.2 million pounds between 2015-2017. Who participated in Joint Endeavour in 2020? Again according to the paper, the EU planned to provide $31 million over 3 years to Ukraine for a peace facility... Starting in December 2021. European defense spending was a nightmare prior to this, and so often its not mentioned as if this didn't have massive compunding effects. What if Europe had a spine and resolve similar to what America did in its aid in 2015-2021? What if other countries actually provided lethal aid to Ukraine prior to the war? Its very, very possible much of this slaughter could have been prevented, if not for much of Europe being asleep.
Yes, its awesome Europe is finally doing right after hundreds of thousands of Ukranians are dead or woudned. My problem is why it took the war for them to finally do what they were supposed to do 10 years ago to of prevented a lot of this from happening.
Last edited by mrstickball - 5 hours agoBack from the dead, I'm afraid.
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