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Ryuu96 6 hours ago
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mrstickball said:
Ryuu96 said:

-Snip-

And the simple solution to having avoided this was..... Any western European leader showing a backbone and supporting Ukraine so the Russians would have lost by now.

Europeans funded the bombs and bullets to kill Ukranians and did literally nothing for Ukranians after the annexation of Crimea. How could any deal or trade for the support needed to win be the fault of Trump or the US when Europe has slow-walked their support, ignored NATO funding for decades, then magically decided that they gotta do more now?

Yes, there are many other proposals out there that would be better for Ukraine to win, but as of yet, this is the only potential one on the table that actually yields a Ukranian victory with their homeland intact. Until another nation does that, then what do you really want?

Why are you laying all the blame on Western Europe? America could have shown a backbone too, Poland, the Baltics and Nordics have all shown a bigger backbone than both Western Europe and America.

And I do agree that Western Europe has been too cowardly but don't kid yourself that America has been any better; It was UK who broke the taboo of sending Western MBTs whilst America debated, it was UK and France who broke the taboo of sending Long-Range Missiles whilst America debated (and still didn't, for months), it was UK who was first to send ATGMs. To date, it is only Europe who have sent F-16s to Ukraine.

It was UK and France who for months were literally begging America to allow Ukraine to use Storm Shadow/SCALP on Russia, missiles which both UK and France created and own, it was America blocking it and threatening to withhold key components or support to Ukraine if we allowed Ukraine to use our own damn missiles as we saw fit. In fact UK has been a stronger supporter of Ukraine than most since as far back as Crimea's invasion.

America's too funded those bombs and bullets that killed Ukrainians and America's too did nothing for Ukrainians after Russia stole Crimea, despite the fact that United Kingdom and United States signed the Budapest Memorandum, that thing where Ukraine surrendered their nukes in exchange for security guarantees? Where were America's security guarantees? We have all failed Ukraine, not just Western Europe.

My criticism is that America plundering Ukraine in exchange for protection is abhorrent, it's Mafia shit, it's extortion. Without America's support, Ukraine will fall, I don't like that Europe is not ready but the fact is they aren't ready. We should be supporting Ukraine simply because it's the right thing to do, not because we want to line our pockets which is what Trump wants to do.

Fact is the majority of "aid" sent to Ukraine by America doesn't even leave America, it stays in America, it is used to build new weapons, it is used to resupply America's own military with newer equipment, whilst Ukraine receives the old stuff which was destined for scrap anyway, it provided American manufacturing jobs, it is already beneficial for America to support Ukraine but now they want more.

Just take Russia's frozen assets FFS instead of pillaging Ukraine.

It is the only potential one on the table because Trump is the one who made it the only potential one on the table, he could still support Ukraine without pillaging the country but since Donald Trump is a heartless bastard and I know there's no alterative, I would bitterly swallow that pill and hope that a future President rips that shit up. How the hell is Ukraine meant to recover post-war if someone is taking all their resources? America sure as shit won't help them, so it's on Europe to invest 100s of billions into restoring Ukraine is it?

You say Western Europe ignored NATO funding for decades but the issue with complaints like these, people act like Eastern Europe doesn't exist, what about those countries? Do they not get any credit at all? Why is it all about Western Europe? Why should Eastern Europe suffer because of Western Europe AND America's lack of conviction?

Poland actually spends more on their military by GDP % than America does and every Baltic Country already hits the 2% threshold, the UK also hits the 2% threshold. Nowadays 23/32 NATO countries hit the 2% threshold. Including Germany. Probably the only relevant ones left are Spain, Italy and France although I don't know how France which has the largest military in Europe isn't hitting 2%.

But I've said time and time again that everyone should do more, nobody is doing enough aside from Poland, Baltics and Nordics.

America is #16 in terms of support as a % of GDP which puts them below...

  1. Estonia
  2. Denmark
  3. Lithuania
  4. Latvia
  5. Finland
  6. Sweden
  7. Netherlands
  8. Poland
  9. Norway
  10. Slovakia
  11. Croatia
  12. United Kingdom
  13. Czechia
  14. Canada
  15. Romania
  16. United States

Europe as a whole has sent more aid than United States and that's not to mention the millions of war migrants we have to take in.

The only countries I would refuse to criticise would be Poland, The Baltics and The Nordics.

America and Western Europe both share blame, both could do a lot more.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - 6 hours ago