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SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

Both sides are aggressors... ok

Both sides shitty... ok

Both sides are villains... ok

Both sides have the right to defense and fight back regardless of difference in power ... ok

you can't trust Palestinians.. ok

Ok, fine, cool, agreed, whatever. But why does this need to come up at all when only one side continue to expand in geography? What sort of retaliation is it for the west bank to house over 550k Israelis up from 100k in 20 years? Infusing the west bank with more settlements and creating check points separating Palestinian neighbourhoods preventing them from building anything that resembles an economy or a unified piece of land is an institutionalised effort that's done by one country one country only and it's not a form of retaliation to anything Palestinians do or don't do, it has nothing to do with "trust" or "mistrust", and it's been on going for decades blessed by Israel's biggest ally, be it the cuddly Obama or the monstrous Trump.

On the other hand, you're trying to convince the other side of a two state solution and peace is the way forward when there isn't any land left to build that state on to begin with. All while watching the Judaization of East Jerusalem and well off Jewish Americans or Europeans moving into the west bank despite not having stepped foot in the middle east since they were born, yet Palestinians, their parents and their grandparents are left wondering wtf is a 2 state solution. Keeping all that in mind, it becomes fathomable why the despicable Hamas continues to gain support

And no, Islam isn't a beautiful religion, no religion is tbh, it's all nonsense that you should criticise how stupid it is and explain why logically to all different age groups so you avoid stupid conflicts like this one. Yes, humans will still find ways to fight but at least it won't be over fairytales. 

Fully agree with all you said, except that religion can't be a beautiful thing. The art, conservation of history and community produced by religion is one of our greatest assets as a species. Yes, it is also rife with conservatism, but that's no different from politics. Which is where religion goes wrong, used for political gains.

Teaching people religion is stupid won't stop conflicts like this. It has nothing to do with religion, religion is simply a tool to keep the conflict going and justify all the crap that's happening. Without religion people will use something else. People tend to want to belong to a group with the genetically build in superiority complex to all other groups. Zionism and Jihad are not born from religion, they're born from those using religion to justify their superiority complex. Unfortunately people don't need religion for ethnic cleansing, apartheid, slavery, war on terror etc.

Btw the best religion is in Bhutan :)
https://theculturetrip.com/asia/bhutan/articles/how-and-why-bhutan-came-to-worship-the-phallus/

I'm not religious myself but find all things produced by religion quite fascinating. Sure, it comes from archaic beliefs in (a) 'higher' power(s) to explain the unknown. Yet most people don't follow the 'teachings' by the letter and know full well they're just stories to describe history and values.


The problem with the state of Palestine is, they keep giving 'the world' reasons not to help. Giving Israel the chance to play the victim and justify all the crap they're doing. A tear down the wall moment is needed, not shoot rockets over the wall.

To start off with, you're one of the best members here so if the rest of my post sounds aggressive, it's just because I am a plain speaker and it's not personal. With that said, I agree you still can brainwash people without the need for religion, and humans will always find ways to surprise us with their stupidity. However, acknowledging that "bad things would still happen anyway" shouldn't be the gateway through which we justify the existence of religion and the monstrosities done in its names. To say that Jihad isn't born from religion is wrong, it's like saying sexism and homophobia and transphobia has nothing to do with Islam when it clearly if the literature encourages such phobias, and you can't have a rationale discussion about these issues with moderate Muslims let alone the more deeply devoted. If you run national surveys in the UK about homosexuality, and before that, we had similar issues with the Christian communities who couldn't be talked to logically about these issues. It's not a coincidence the younger generations are more accepting and rational and less connected to religion at the same time. 

And to bring this back to the topic at hand, listen to the settlers justifying settlements violating international law because god promised them a piece of land. 

Religion is used for political gains because religion is deeply political, it wants to be involved with internal and foreign policies just as much as politicians want it to be involved. Teaching kids that x religion is the truth at the age of 5 can only result in brains that can't be reasoned with on important issues when they grow older. You argue humans' are gonna be evil anyway, and I say, well, if it's bad as it is, you don't catalyse it further with fairytales sold as truths. And don't worry, you'd still get your gorey, sexist, -phobic stories in the form of novels, TV shows and video games. They're all mankind's creation after all, just like religions. 

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” 

As for Palestinian giving the world reasons not to help them, well, it's less about what they do and more about lobbying. Once they have something as big as AIPAC in the USA, maybe Obama would've had the balls to do more than issuing blanket statements about how settlements are problematic 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 16 May 2021