shikamaru317 said:
I don't want to get too deep into this (I typically avoid the politics forum for a reason, I just find it draining) but I will do my best to answer each of your points in bold above. May do further replies, and then again I may not. In the end, I think we are getting into pretty deep issues here. What to do when inalienable rights seem to contradict one another. Far wiser men than me debate these things and can never seem to come up with a clear answer. In the end, I think it is best to just try to be kind to one another as much as possible. If you're gay person and a Christian baker doesn't feel comfortable making a cake for your wedding on religious grounds, try and respect their belief and just go somewhere else. On the other hand, if you're the baker and don't feel comfortable doing so, try to explain why as nicely as possible, and tell the gay customer that they would probably be better off going elsewhere, and have a list of nearby LGBT friendly bakers ready to assist them. The whole world runs much smoother if people try and understand one another and try and be courteous to one another. |
Firstly, nobody is forcing anyone to make a cake. You have the option of not being a baker. If you are a baker, you can be reasonably sure that something you bake will be enjoyed at some kind of occasion you do not approve of. Keep in mind, that the cake being ordered was a completely normal wedding cake, that did not have any special pro gay message or anything. Now, if a baker was questioning every person they gave a cake to about the nature of their party, and then morally evaluating each one, there'd be a slightly better case. You can be a baker that only caters to a narrow clientele. But, if you're going to put yourself out there as a business that serves the public, there are responsibilities that kick in. It's not like forcing a Jewish person to eat pork. It's like requiring a Jewish person who applied for a job at McDonalds to serve customers cheeseburgers. (There is also specific commandment against eating non-kosher foods, and not one against selling cakes to people who are celebrating things you don't like, so even on purely scriptural grounds that's a pretty weak comparison).
It seems to me what you're saying that if a belief is part of an "established" religion, then it is a sufficient ground for discrimination. And this is in absolute direct conflict with the first amendment. Saying that a religious belief that is somehow justified by a holy book is a valid basis for discrimination, while a religious belief that is completely sincere but not based on a holy book is not a valid basis is establishing scriptural religions above all others.
Presumably, you are also referring to mainstream religions, and if a guy in 1960 wrote a book about what God commands and I read and completely believed in it, that would not meet your standards... So, you do not have freedom to practice religions, just freedom to practice specific government endorsed religions. That's a big no-no.
And there is also a huge problem of interpretation. There are verses as you said that can be interpreted as against interracial marriage. If one sincerely believes that is the position the bible supports, then can a court tell them they're wrong? Should the courts be in the business of determining acceptable interpretations of scripture? As a religious person, I'd assume you would not want that.
If you are arguing that there should be a specific religious exemption for bakers the ONLY rational test there could be is whether the exempted person sincerely believes in the reason they're giving. Any other kind of test puts the government in the position of deeming what religious views are acceptable and which are not, which is the exact thing the first amendment is supposed to prevent.
Moreover, I don't understand why it should matter at all whether the belief is based in religion or not. If I can not discriminate against gay people because I think what they're doing is immoral, why does it become ok to do so because I think that god thinks its immoral? Why is it ok to "force" me to do something only if I can't point to a holy book or divine being that says it's not ok?
If people can refuse service, then the only possible logically consistent standard can be that they can refuse service when performing that service would violate their sincerely held moral beliefs. This would effectively legalize any kind of racism or discrimination. But, if you want to give that right to the Christian bakers, you have to give it to everyone.
Alternatively of course, you can hold that discrimination against certain protected classes is prohibited regardless of personal beliefs. A much better standard. The risk of someone having to sell a cake that will be eaten at an event they disapprove of is far less than the risk of discrimination which history tells us will occur if allowed.
Lastly, it's odd that both of your examples of understanding involve the gay couple "understanding" the baker's position. It also assumes there are plenty of bakers around, which may not be the case in all areas. And, if this applies to wedding cakes, it could easily apply in various other contexts. For instance, jobs, where denial on the basis of gender/orientation could be devastating. The reason we have the laws we do is because of our history with segregation and the damage that caused. A religious basis doesn't change the potential harm.
Last edited by JWeinCom - on 04 January 2021
