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Dante9 said:
JuliusHackebeil said:

I'm trying to frame this in regards to what I want from ND in their next game, so that it is not too far off topic.

I think there is a somewhat discussion to be had about murder and torture being a good, or bad thing. Sure, we all see those things as bad, but this does not mean I cannot consume stuff (like video games) where the lessons are unintuitive, difficult, moraly revolting. I don't think ND is interested anylonger in making such games. Where the lesson in the end is: murder is difficult but just foresake some part of your humanity, become a monster, do the most horrible acts and live happier for it.

Don't get me wrong, murder is almost always wrong and almost always scarring. Any balanced human being would agree with that. But perhaps playing as a balanced human being, who in the end always learns the right lesson, is boring. I would find it much more interesting and engaging to play as a psychopath who over time loses remorse over torture and killing, lives happy and walks away with the completely wrong lesson.

Kind of what happened in TLoU part 1. Joel is for all intents and purposes a shitty person (how Tess put it). He lived part of the apocalyps as hunter scum. He kills all the good guys and even gravely betrays the trust of his daughter (Ellie of course). And then he walks away with her, to live a peaceful happy life in Jackson.

But suddenly, in Part 2, everything is different. Suddenly people get what they diserve. And many charakters really had it coming. I want a cruel world where injustice wins. In Part 2 some cosmic forces, or karma or whatever is really at it. And everybody seems to get what they deserve. That is kiddy and boring.

I might be on the wrong track with the following, but I think if you subscribe to a certain ideology and are of a certain mindset, game like that, games that I want, cannot be made. And ND at the moment is in a headspace where creating something like I described above seems impossible.

The TLoU2 is deeper than most games. Sure. But it did not go far enough for me by a long shot. Part 1 excelled in comparison. And this describes a downward trajectory ND might be on.

Okay, I now have a better grasp of where you're coming from and what it is that you would like to see.

However, I think that most "normal" games actually are already giving you what you are looking for. Just kill everything that comes in your way to reach your goals and live on happily, without giving it a second thought. Very few games try to offer any kind of moral pondering whatsoever, it's just kill X to get Y. Totally psychopathic behavior with impunity, when you think about it. To me, *that's* boring compared to what TLOU has been offering lately.

The shittiness was acknowledged in part one and part two did not drop it, but rather expanded on it. So much so in fact, that many people were completely turned off, they don't want to feel all these shitty feelings one way or the other. They want clear cut good and bad and their favorites to live on forever. How dare someone suggest that their favorites may actually be kind of bad and perhaps deserve something not so good.

Many people had it coming but some did not so much, just like in real life. Injustices were everywhere, including the fates of some main characters. People that once were nice and balanced became unhinged and consumed by their worst aspects. And in some cases, lessons were not learned until it was too late, if at all. It's complicated. Good stuff.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you, man :) We just must have very different lenses on when playing these games.

I'd be interested to see what a game would look like if it had exactly what you are looking for here. Are there games that work for you in this regard, that you could give as an example?

I don't like when some of my favorite chars are killed in media, but sometimes that was the best thing for that story. And yes several cases not killing some of the chars make the story to light and inconsequential.

And yes it could also be that Joel was just walking doing patrol and is caught of guard by a single infected and killed, very pointless. But doesn't in life people like Kobe Bryant die totally unexpected and pointless deaths?

Also I agree with you, I already have plenty of games that do the simple and silly thing, mindless fun and whatnot. Also have generic open world and other stuff. So I applaud when GoT or TLOU is done even if the second isn't my favorite game (I prefer the light, fun exploration of Uncharted, but I recognize that TLOU is a better game in every single aspect). And I say that after having platinum for UC 1-4 + Lost Legacy, and in case of 1-3 I have 2 because I also plat the remaster collection. Same thing God of War, I prefer 1-3 (and have 2 plats for each), but also there is no denial that GoW is the superior game in every aspect. TLOU I played once in PS3 and once in PS4 but no plat, TLOU2 I played 1,5 with platinum. GoW also played 1,5. Compare that to UC 1-4 that I played each about 6 times, and GoW 1-3 each 4 times or more... People really need to learn how to separate personal taste from objective evaluation.

Similarly I'm very much against progressive agenda and surrounding subjects, and can see there was a lot of pandering and agenda driven in TLOU2. Still it was done superb on TLOU2 (much better than on UC4 in fact), to a point I could easily detect but didn't detract a iota of my opinion on the game and even my enjoyment.

Last edited by DonFerrari - on 27 October 2020

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