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JWeinCom on 04 October 2020
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FarleyMcFirefly said:
JWeinCom said:

We have a responsibility as mods to make sure members feel comfortable posting here. We have no such obligation to celebrities. Doesn't mean anything goes, but our policies don't match your view on morality. Not saying you're wrong, but we disagree.

As for local governments, they are responsible to the extent that they employed bad policy. For my local government's part, I feel that my governor was very transparent and followed the recommendations of scientists at the time. I don't agree with every decision, but I feel that every decision he made was with the intent of doing what he thought was best based on available knowledge at the time. 

I've given a pretty good list of indefensible decisions Trump has made. I'm not going to hold him responsible for everything that happens, but when he does things like hold large rallies with no social distancing, or tells a reporter wearing a mask to take it off and then accuses him of wearing it "to be politically correct", then those are things he is directly responsible for. 

First off, nobody is advocating violence. Anyone who did would be moderated. 

Secondly half of the examples were ignored... but w/e...

As for the "he didn't want to panic people", no absolute bullshit.

I will just grant for argument's sake that being honest would have scared people. I'll even grant that telling people "listen to the scientists and wear a mask" would have been too much for America to handle back in March.

Five fucking days ago, Trump downplayed the value of masks, and lied about Dr. Fauci's position on it. Would telling people five days ago "one of my leading experts says we should all wear masks" have sent the county spiraling into chaos? Give me a break. 

And then, after sharing a plane ride with someone who was symptomatic, he still decided to attend a fundraiser where he took no precautions to social distance or observe other safety precautions. This was a private event. Would cancelling it have caused mass panic? Would spacing people 6 feet apart or wearing masks have caused the country to fall apart? Obviously not. 

Dunno if you're trying, very poorly, to support Trump or if you just genuinely want to see the good in people, but no. He knowingly exposed people to a deadly virus. And it wasn't to avoid causing a panic, it was because it was a fundraising event and he wanted funds.

And Trump has no concern at all about making people panic. He wants you to panic about the rapists coming in from Mexico, he wants you to panic about non-existent voter fraud, he wants you to panic about the evil liberals, he wants you to panic about non-existent Muslims celebrating on September 11th, and Hillary Clinton coming to take all your guns away.  Half of his campaign speeches are telling you about shit to be scared of.

Hatred is natural and can be a healthy motivator. People should hate Donald Trump for his abysmal job handling this crisis, which was clearly for the purpose of doing what he thought was best for him. And I hope that hatred will drive people to the polls or mailboxes to get him out of office.

I don't support either side in this when all is said and done. So even if it is naive, I am just trying to see the good in people. I am trying to see things from both sides. I am just curious, from where are you getting your news from? Because according to the left: Trump supports white supremacy and violence, inciting the Proud Boys to violence, and the only way to stop this madness is to get him out of office. According to the right: the democrats want no law inforcement, they will not denounce riots from BLM and Antifa. There has been hatred and violence on both sides. I don't think Trump is a nice person but I don't think he is an evil person. I think the media smears him and people believe it. Both sides are trying to cause panic (in different ways) to ensure their victory in the election. 

Were the numbers not originally 2 million Americans for this year? I'm just trying to understand. We do not have all of the facts. We still do not really know much about this disease, as if we did, it would be under control and we would have a vaccine. From my perspective as a neighbour, I saw the left smear Trump as xenophobic when he closed off China. It is like a lose lose situation. Anything that he would have done would have been scrutinized in one way or another. 

I hate death. Death is the reason why I am crippled by anxiety. Any death is too many from this disease. But I believe that it would have happened with any other president. I just cannot understand placing blame solely on him and never recognizing anything good that he has done. What about his historic peace deals? Are they not important because of the pandemic?  

Honestly, I am just trying to get all sides, but I cannot agree with either. People are too extreme one way or another and aren't going to change their minds. Hatred isn't a healthy motivator. Anger is. You can have righteous anger. You cannot have righteous hatred. When you hate one side, or one person, and you put out that hate. How will that heal tensions?  How will that bring about positive change? It won't. 

I gotta admit this is very frustrating. Because I'm giving concrete examples and you're instantly shifting to something else. I'm bringing up clear examples of where Trump objectively did fucked up things and you're saying "well what about this thing that was only maybe fucked up"?

And I don't see what point you're trying to make there. I don't automatically object to everything Trump does, which is why I didn't mention everything Trump does to justify my hatred. I'm giving concrete examples of terrible things he has objectively done. And there are enough of those to justify hatred without reaching into the other questionable things he's done. 

So, let's stick to these two examples if you will.

1. At the debate with Biden, Trump downplayed the effectiveness of mask, implied that Dr. Fauci had mixed feelings about masks, and that there are many scientists who disagree that masks are effective. When Joe Biden said masks could save thousands of lives, Trump said that Fauci disagreed.

Meanwhile, every scientist that is part of the administration has said differently. The director of the CDC said that masks are "“the most important, powerful public health tool we have... I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine.” Meanwhile Dr. Fauci said “Anybody who has been listening to me over the last several months knows that a conversation does not go by where I do not strongly recommend that people wear masks.”

The scientists that work for him are unequivocal in their support for masks saying that they will save lives. Trump is actively undermining them and discouraging what they say is the most effective way to save lives. How the fuck is that justifiable?

2. Trump, knowing there's a freaking pandemic, after being exposed to someone who is showing symptoms of the pandemic, went to a fundraiser taking no precautions to prevent the spread of the disease which he most definitely had at that point. He showed a total and utter disregard for anyone he might come in contact with. How the fuck is that justifiable? 

Any other president would have encouraged people to wear a mask. In fact all three living presidents did just that. George Bush put out a great message encouraging Americans to unite and encouraging them to follow basic safety advice. https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/05/03/george-w-bush-coronavirus-message-partisanship-vpx.cnn Trump called the virus a democratic hoax and called wearing a mask "political correctness".

This isn't about Democrat vs Republican or right vs left. This is about every person with any expertise in the matter telling us how to save lives and one fucking moron ignoring them and encouraging others to do the same. If you think Trump actively discouraging mask wearing did not lead to more deaths, then you're arguing with the director of the CDC, Canada's Chief Public Health Officer, the FDA, and the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious diseases.  Listening to health experts in a public health crisis is not an extreme position but one lowlife piece of shit has made it that way, and he deserves hatred and condemnation. That you're trying to justify that behavior is mind boggling.

Again, I've already explained how hate improves things. It drives us to take action against those things that we hate. While you're trying to excuse someone for telling people not to follow life saving medical advice, those who hate Trump will vote him out and encourage others to do so. 

P.S. If Trump brokered any historic peace deals, I'll give him credit. As someone who studied the history of the Arab Israeli Conflict, I'm pretty sure you're not talking about the UAE Israeli agreement. Those two countries had never been on opposite sides of an armed conflict and have been cooperating for the past decade to combat Iran's Nuclear Program. Bahrain and Israel likewise had never had any kind of armed conflict and had private diplomatic relations since about 2007. There have been literally 0 deaths resulting from the conflicts between the UAE, Bahrain, and Israel, nor was their any conflict brewing as they all perceive Iran as their greatest threat. Hardly seems historic.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 04 October 2020