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the-pi-guy said:

Mr Puggsly said:

I suppose it becomes a debate on how many billions of dollars is massive support for illegals.

For context, the cost of the wall is pennies for the government.  Even the most extreme estimates for illegal immigration by right wing groups is pennies more than the wall. 

There is no possible future in any nearby century, where the US comes crashing down due to the cost of illegals.   

Mr Puggsly said:

In practice sanctuary are more like cities illegals simply dwell in and may even get benefits, even if they commit crimes. I dont understand this myth that police kick out every illegal they see. If thats the case then theyre doing a terrible job.

Seeing how ICE has literally arrested and jailed a US citizen,

I would say they are clearly doing a terrible job.

Mr Puggsly said:

Politically Im where center used to be. Your arguments have always been left of that. Dems right now are in the far left. Republicans have found themselves more to the center, unless its a very conservative state. I dont agree with all republican views but I find myself siding with them more just for being closer to the center.

I will agree I am definitely left.  

The current Democratic party is center left.  Which certainly feels far left, considering the US has not had a major left wing political party in decades.  

Republicans have not moved to center.  Take for example healthcare:

During the 90's, Obamacare would have been the Republican bill.

Suddenly in 2009, it's a left wing bill.  How do you think that happened?

Mr Puggsly said:

What if the middle class cant afford the tax hikes along with a private healthcare premium? Dems dont want to admit that will happen with their plans. Democrats want options, high taxes reduce options so the politicians lie.

The whole point is to have the tax replace current healthcare costs.  If you take current healthcare costs into consideration as a "tax", it will effectively be a tax reduction.  Even right wingers have estimated hundreds of billions in savings.  

Mr Puggsly said:

In the grand scheme of our spending on the wall is a drop in the bucket. Many more billions go to dealing with illegals. The wall works but not on its own and frankly has become symbolic. Simply throwing illegals out would actually kill demand for a wall.

We have been throwing out illegals.  During the Obama era, over a million illegals were deported yearly.

Even if the wall were to work 100%, it wouldn't fix the immigration problem.  Around half of all illegal immigrants who come here, don't come over the southern border.

Mr Puggsly said:

I did a quick searxh on Mexico's welfare in general, its pathetic and I dont see universal healthcare.

Mr Puggsly said:

High taxes arent something the dems can run on. They are trying to convince people it will be paid by the rich. Its a lie and many of the illegals wont be able to pay much tax and provide for themselves entirely. They arent exactly highly educated.

No one wants high taxes.  

Mr Puggsly said:

We dont know how many illegals are actually in the country, now count is really done for ideological teasons. Estimates vary from 10 to 20 million. Some estimates believe 100K enter monthly. Another $4 billion just went to providing additional care for illegals coming. The whole thing is a mess, thats reality. What has declined is people coming from Mexico while people from other countries has increased.

The 20 million estimate doesn't hold up.

Mr Puggsly said:

Indeed, a lot of resources does go to the elderly and rightfully so. Perhaps we arent collecting enough taxes to simply take care of that, perhaps people retire too early and maybe the government is doing a terrible job negotiating healthcare costs (because they suck with money). Essentially we have a government doing a terrible job balancing our current budget yet want to spend significantly more with new social programs. You're actually helping my argument.

>Essentially we have a government doing a terrible job balancing our current budget yet want to spend significantly more with new social programs.

Largely because not everyone wants the same thing.  No one wants higher taxes.  But both sides are happy to spend more money.  Republicans are happy to spend an extra $100 billion on the military.  Democrats want to spend an extra $100 billion on schooling, but no that's irresponsible.  Democrats at least understand that we need taxes to pay for things.  

Mr Puggsly said:

I've argued if our government can't find a way to provide reasonably priced healthcare for 100+ million of whatever number they provide for. What good can we expect from another 150 million they hope to take from private providers?

Medicare does fine.  It could be better, but the same is true for private insurance.  

Due to administration, (private and public), hospitals would go under if they only charged at Medicare costs.  

But a big reason for medicare for all would be to reduce administration costs.

Mr Puggsly said:

Well this is something we agree on.

But why is this such a problem in liberal cities and evidently states.

Im confused why people leaving blue states dont just change cities. But the fact they change states entirely shows the states in general are a mess.

Just because an area votes Democratic, doesn't mean they are liberal.  And it certainly doesn't mean they are liberal in every position.  

Liberal ideas in general are far more expensive than bringing in illegals alone. My only concern isnt the illegals.

Im sure ICE and every agency makes mistakes. Most illegals are good people, but some stab innocent people to death. Shit happens. Cherry picking stories is not something Im looking to do.

I would say democrats are simply pushing left to extreme left ideas right now. Some are certainly staying center left in practice, but they are pandering just left to oppose Trump. Any center ideas Trump has is suddenly too extreme.

Again, personally I dont think making tweaks to healthcare is an inherently a bad idea. Does that mean I think Obamacare was a good idea? Most say no, even dems dont like it.

A vast majority of the democratic presidential candidates are telling people they dont want to take away private healthcare. Youre suggesting the whole point is to tax people off of private healthcare as an option. I wish they were as honest as you so it would be clear.

I agree the wall on its own wont solve the problem. I also said its partly symbolic and desired because the problems with illegals.

Did some searching on Mexico's "universal healthcare." Frankly, if that counts than the US has already achieved it. People dont talk about it because its a mess. Also, people attempting to come over have been known to have health problems as well. So as of right now Mexico's universal health system is smoke and mirrors but kudos on the effort I guess.

Indeed, nobody wants high taxes which is why dems are just focusing on the rich being taxed. In reality and you admit taxes will go up on everybody significantly.

Im simply pointing out there is no real count of the illegal population and I highly doubt the low estimates are accurate. On a side note, California doesent seem to release abortion numbers. Personally I feel all this information should be tracked and shared with the public. But it doesent happen because it might hurt left leaning ideologies.

Democrats actually supported the military spending increase which is why it happened easily. Both sides also have people that want to attack Iran.  We already spend more money on education than almost every other country. This just becomes another example of inefficient spending. Also, spending doesent make kids smarter but it does put money in the pockets of staff.

Medicare apparently still pays a lot more than other countries for the same procedures and drugs. Hence, make so some tweaks and force them do it for less. As would a universal system.  Maybe regulations need to change if they could go under.

If they arent liberal they should stop letting democrats ruin their cities and states. Again, theyre objectively chasing people out. Major cities can continue growing fast when run properly, not chasing people to more conserative cities/states.

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