Don't worry I saw this. Its just that I tried to 4 times to make a comment and it kept on refreshing on me. So I kinda lost a little enthusiasm. So to keep it a little shorter (its not gonna be short) I'll say this:
V For this first part, I accept your full and complete concession of these points
| donathos said:
Mumm-Ra not smart? You don't get to be ever-living by accident, my friend. In fact, Wikipedia has this to say about Mumm-Ra: "Mumm-Ra is also praised for being much more competent than other famous cartoon villains from the 1980s; such as Skeletor of Masters of the Universe fame." That's Wikipedia, bruh. It must be true. And yes, of course, Snarf rejected the dark power insofar as he was able. He is, after all, a hero. But seduction is a curious thing -- it works on a person from the inside. As I'd said before, Mumm-Ra is playing the long game, willing to "lose" certain battles in order to win the war. Just because Snarf displayed no obvious residual effects in following episodes, don't naively conclude that things weren't still going exactly according to his plan. That's precisely what an evil genius like Mumm-Ra would want you to think. I think the video evidence speaks for itself -- Mumm-Ra nearly defeated the Demolisher single-handedly, so he was greatly diminished by the time Lion-O finished him off. This is no mark against Mumm-Ra (or Lion-O) -- the Demolisher was the Greatest Warrior in the Galaxy. Dude had a skull for a belt buckle, that's how hard he was. |
Now for this part...
|
It's a given that evil beings don't get along with one another. It's not as though they're just on a different team than the heroes -- like playing for the Los Angeles Lakers, or something -- they're evil. They don't play well with others. But the relationship between the ASOE and Mumm-Ra is symbiotic: they need each other. Mumm-Ra knows this and he uses the ASOE to his own ends. In fact, it is conceivable that Mumm-Ra is playing against them as well, such is his strategic vision. In any case, we discuss Mumm-Ra as the ThunderCats' antagonist, because he is. He's the face of evil, the man (or mummy) in charge. This is unlike, say, the relationship between Skeletor and Hordak, where Skeletor bungled a routine kidnapping, betrayed his boss and got bounced from the operation. Within his sphere, Mumm-Ra is the unquestioned master of evil; but Skeletor himself is only a distant number two (in power, in intelligence, in evil)behind Hordak, not that this is any great accomplishment. If Skeletor ever looks competent, it is only because he's standing next to guys like Trap Jaw and Mer-Man. In fact, that probably explains why he keeps such incompetent subordinates around. It helps him to feel better about himself. And you also greatly undersell Lion-O's skill. He's a "literal child aged into a man's body"? Transformations can be powerful. I mean, as much as I recognize the superiority of Mumm-Ra and the children of Thundera generally against the so-called "Masters of the Universe," I can still recognize that some of those characters are powerful. Battle Cat, for instance, is a powerful creature. But Cringer...? Is not. Because Battle Cat is a transformed version of Cringer, that doesn't mean that Battle Cat is any less awesome; and Lion-O, whatever his origin, is a powerful and resourceful hero. You say that Lion-O is "a literal child aged into a man's body"? I'd say that almost describes He-Man, too. But in all of this, I note that you concentrate on Mumm-Ra's supposed defects, and make little mention of Skeletor himself. It's understandable in a way. If I were you, I wouldn't want to discuss Skeletor either. But it turns out he also has a few... skeletons in his closet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3065gA1S0I What I want you to concentrate on here is not the fact that Skeletor loses. Of course he loses. It's not even the humiliating way he loses, or how Orko plays an integral role (and whatever else we can say about them as heroes, Snarf >>> Orko) and even finds time to dunk on Beast Man. Instead, concentrate on how unserious Skeletor and his "threats" seem. The way He-Man and company treat Skeletor as a joke -- and that Skeletor is the only one who doesn't get it. Mumm-Ra and Skeletor both struggle to overcome their heroic adversaries. But at least Mumm-Ra is taken seriously. *** Edited to add: I wish I understood the formatting a little better... sometimes, I feel like such a Skeletor... |
Nah I can't let any of the bold slide. I avoided talking about She Ra because I didn't really watch that show much, but even so I distinctly remember Skeletor beating him once. So I looked back watched a few episodes and the movie. Turns out I was wrong. He fights him to a draw once and BEATS him twice. The second time, the one I remember, was especially a big triumph. He boarded Horde Prime's ship, the most powerful ship in the galaxy, beat a bunch of Hordak's troops, made the others flee, and then beat Hordak himself.
The first fight and draw are interesting because they both take place in the She Ra movie. The kidnapping is completely Hordak's fault, Skeletor was doing his job well, but when Hordak slipped up and got beaten by the MAA Skeletor was caught of guard. Hordak abandoned Skeletor and escaped with a Adora. This same Hordak launched his army at Eternia only for Randor to sprint passed his very own army to slap around Hordak's. Hordak tried to kidnap the twins as a back up plan, not a routine one. This was over ten years prior to the movie, where Skeletor was his student. Back in present time Skeletor immediately let's him know he is his own master and fights him to draw with Hordak calling for a ceasefire. They then work together to kidnap Adora again, only for Skeletor to betray Hordak and kick him back into his own dimension.
Now Hordak is no pushover by any means and can easily beat Mumm-Ra too, but no he's not stronger than Skeletor and certainly not #1 (that goes to Horde Prime, largely due to the size of his army, followed by Skeletor).
The Lion-O part I'll make quick. It isn't that He neither has skill or ability or even intellect. He has all those things. However, he still has the mind and mentality of a child for the longest time in the series. It nearly cost him and his team several times throughout the series. This is why I emphasize it. Mumm-Ra had so many advantages over him + that and he still lost.
As I showed before the ASOE are his masters, He says they're his masters, and they punish him like they are his evil masters. The only time he even thinks of challenging them is in the comic where Skeletor literally is the one to bring it up and come up with the plan. But this isn't about the comic, its about the 80's show.
His minions don't respect him at all. Remember how I was saying Lion-O's immaturity almost cost him?
They were talking smack to him in front of his face. L-Ra was so humiliated, he couldn't say a word back until his coffin completely closed. That's how you know your not a good villain.
Speaking of which, his minions consistently did better than Mumm Ra ever could. I remember Mumm Ra having to pay a bounty hunter to beat unconscious Panthro and then still losing to Panthro.
Now we talk about Skeletor. Its interesting that you bring why I barely talk up Skeletor. Its not that I don't want to, but its that I like evidence to back up what I say. When I look it up on youtube its a struggle to find anything other than his bounds of greatness in compilations except in full episodes. The clip you showed is interesting because outside of the clip itself, and even in context what you say betrays what actually happens. Skeletor goes into the castle in the beginning and decimates everyone and takes Adam. Its only making a dummy bot, ambushing him with 2 others, (making it 3-on-1 because everyone can and will dunk on Beast-Man) and random super bat wolves attacking, that they overwhelm him. Even then Skeletor knocked He-Man down in the fight. Keep in mind He-Man barely fights Skeletor by himself too now that I think about it, because he's neither smart or resourceful enough to do it. The last time I remember him doing this, Skeletor captured him, erased his memories, and banished him across the universe. Top tier. Also look up Batros. THAT is how a villain gets someone to do bidding, not with money, but with might and charisma.
"You talk, I'll listen..."
Skeletor: "I'll talk and you'll obey!"
And he does. Because Skeletor is a real villain.
EDIT:
https://youtu.be/pBxD9MGTdcw?t=4m18s
Batros part starts at 4:18
Last edited by Dravenet7 - on 23 November 2018
