foxmccloud64 said:

I wouldn't say uncomfortable but lets remember that everything can be discussed, analyzed and/or criticized, its okay to bring this things to the table and learn more from them, the thing with the "feminist things" nowadays is that they have seem to have "blown out" if you will, due to some groups and massive media as they try to impose their opinions  and force their "facts", even when they aren't homogenous even from person to person or "woman to woman", as evidenced by the original question about which games are considered feminist.

It's not that this themes can't be discussed but a lot of people do it ignoring a lot of the things involved, or not knowing or considering simpler premises which most of the times are the basis for a lot of our arguments and instead recurring to ovethinked, complicated or just far-fetched statements, then there is also the outright resort to insults or disqualifications, then people tend to let go and dismiss the discussion or a lot of times assume the complete reverse (and equally ridiculous) stance.

I grew learning that feminism was the "ideology" of looking just for what was right: to get women to be treated as equal and have the same opportunities in every field of the human development as men. Being from a country that has history of being considered "machista" (sexist), that is not "predominantly white", full of inequality thanks to its goverment etc. i think a lot of the people like myself can still tell you about women that are still being oppressed to this day and the complete bullshit spewed by media, and the "feminist" groups and other advocated to "social justice".

For example, in our entertainment media the videogames, practically growing with them since the NES days and having access to a lot of computer games i can attest to the "damsel in distress" trope being one the most prevalent in a lot of our videogames, but people outright ignore the basis for why it was used a lot to begin with.

Then you have  as characters that have been considered well done by feminist as written by leedlee:

A good feminist character who interacts with men would be Bayonetta...

Yes, she's extremely sexual, and male gamers may find it appealing, but she is in control of her sexuality; she is not sexual in order to get gratification or validation from men, she's constantly "feeling her oats" as a drag queen would say..."

But then again there is a lack of equivalence even between feminists or people that define themselves like that because a lot of them disagree in what is to be treated as equal.

 

  • Some have said that Bayonetta is nothing more than eye candy.
  • Some that Bayonetta is another oversexed female.
  • Some that she is a strong female or an action female.
  • Some that she is a strong female that is in control of her sexuality.
  • Some just dismiss her as a forgettable female in a genre which generally has male protagonist.
  • Some call her bad designed and weird.
  • Some think she is and/or look strange and ridiculous.
  • Some call her outright gross.

 

Then again, i  have read a lot of opinions from consumers and "professional journalists" calling themselves feminist like that about her and a lot of characters, seems to me that we have a lot not only differences, but also clashing as to what we can label as feminist according to what anyone think its feminism.

I'm not really gathering what the crux of your argument is here, but to speak to the particular case of Bayonetta, while I think a supportive position is understandable, I'm not really among the franchise's biggest fans, personally.

The issue with Bayonetta for me is not that I object to fighting characters having sex appeal. I can relate to wanting to feel more appealing myself often. I don't object to female action characters donning revealing attire sometimes. What I object to about Bayonetta is that she is not a fighting character who happens to be sexy so much as she is a sexy character who happens to fight. All of her "fighting" moves are actually stripper moves, up to and including the removal of all her clothes as a form of attack. In other words, she is nothing but her sex appeal, and I don't find that very appealing.