Tulipanzo said:
KLAMarine said:
Did the Falcon crash? No. Okay, I can buy that.
What I cannot buy is that the Falcon would be able to outmaneuver multiple fighters considering its larger relative mass. That's like a cargo van outmaneuvering a race car or a B28 bomber outmaneuvering a fighter.
The Falcon was meant for smuggling, not maneuvering but in the hands of Rey, it can do anything.
In the original trilogy it does exactly that during the battle of Endor :p
Like I said, if you don't like the adjective then Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.
What I am saying is that you are parroting the term Mary Sue without knowing what it means, or where it originated...
Backpedaling out of your own thread is not a good look
Are you suggesting that in the act of liking/trusting Rey, the other characters break the fourth wall?
I am suggesting they have no reason to dislike her, especially since they are short on manpower and on Force users
I'm expecting the cast to be neutral to her, not to dislike her much like how to Han, Luke was just talking cargo and to Leia, Luke was a means to escape. Even after all was said and done near the end of ANH, Han wanted to leave and Leia was getting back to work fighting the Empire. All Luke's connections got him was joining with other X-Wing fighters in a daring attack on the Death Star.
Compare that to Finn who devoted himself to Rey or Rey getting a critical lone mission to find Luke. Rather than the rebels sending a delegation to meet Luke in this vital mission, they send a newcomer on her own. Compare that to Kylo who is trying to recruit her to his side. Vader was aiming to kill Luke in ANH.
No, I'm suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren should be able to at least render helpless a novice Rey who just recently discovered the force and just recently wielded a saber. Instead, she wins and the tension in the scene is destroyed. Kylo Ren's threat level is destroyed. I'm not invested anymore because Rey just keeps showing she always comes out on top no matter the circumstance.
Is it so much to ask for that the protagonist get his/her ass kicked a bit and lose here and there much like with Luke? Give the opposition a bit of a threat level rather than removing it.
If you pay attention (I know, it's hard) to the fight he is clearly shown to have the upper hand even when wounded and emotionally distraught. Even working with "threat levels" he is still clearly the strongest fighter. It would be asinine to suggest he is weaker just because he lost. Like saying Vader is shit because he got shot down in the first movie.
Also I suggest watching TLJ if you are really hoping to see Rey outclassed and at her lowest point yet.
Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed. How's that?
Still piss, sorry.
This bears repeating btw:
I think there's an angle you're not seeing here. I'm sure you could provide reasons [at least one of us can] as to why Rey always seems to have the upper hand in whatever situation she finds herself but this doesn't change the fact that she always has an upper hand. No feat seems impossible to her.
This is a problem for storytelling: things like building tension and helping the viewer to suspend their disbelief are done by not only making a character believable but also making the antagonist threatening. Rey being good at so many things at some point becomes unbelievable.
I think everyone here would agree that they're good at some things and bad at other things. I'm good at math and science but I'm terrible at reading Shakespeare. That stuff is not modern-day English. Even people really good at one thing are not so good at another: Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but a mediocre baseball player.
Being able to fix things, speak droid, fight well, and even overcome Kylo's mind probe and turn it against him runs counter to building tension because at some point, I just expect Rey to always win. Rey being good at everything isn't gonna make me wonder if she'll be able to overcome the next obstacle, I'll just get used to expecting it.
Quick round:
Fix things and speak droid: it's her literal job
Fight well: grew up on a lawless scrap-collecting planet
Kylo: he is clearly unwell and the film goes to great lenghts to portray him at such; the failed mind probe is not meant to show she's immune to mind probes (as the sequel shows), but to showcase furthermore Kylo's instability and very clear weaknesses
Always win: she was never kidnapped, she never had to run away while her opponent was unconscious
That's boring: tension dies and suspension of disbelief is shattered. It's what happens when you turn on god mode in a game: fun at first but it gets boring quickly. Without risk, where's the fun? Where's the challenge? Would a game that was won by pressing a 'press to win' button be fun?
No, it wouldn't be fun.
To add to all this, this latest Star Wars trilogy does not exist in a vacuum and neither does Rey's character: Luke Skywalker exists in this universe and he had to get his ass kicked before becoming the capable Luke Skywalker in episode 6. He got his ass handed to him by cantina thugs, tusken raiders, Darth Vader, and even the emperor rendered him helpless with lightning.
"Rey doesn't have the same character arc as Luke" is not a flaw in storytelling
Thankfully for Luke, he had people to help him: Obi-Wan rescued him from cantina thugs and tusken raiders, R2 and 3PO saved him from getting squashed, Han Solo saved him from getting shot down in ANH and freezing to death in ESB, Leia saved him when he was close to plunging to his death in ESB, Darth Vader saved him from the emperor in RotJ.
Rey's story in the sequel is far more isolated from anyone elses, but even in TFA she frequently needs others help: Finn's when escaping the planet as he mans the turret, Han because he knows the galaxy better than she does, the Resistance to carry out the final mission etc.
Hell, she's straight up knocked out by Kylo on two separate occasions, AND as to run away from Storm Troopers.
Your vision of Rey as someone who always comes out on top is not one supported by the film. It's in your head.
Rey saved herself when in the same film, Poe needed help from Finn and Finn needed help from Rey. Doesn't seem terribly balanced.
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I think this post unwillingly highlights why you have a problem, and that is you've come to codify the specific beat of the original trilogy as being "how you make good movies", and have come to resent any deviation from those.
Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader: as an antagonist he is not scary because he can win, but paradoxically, because he can lose. He is the closest we've seen a character struggle with Light and Dark side. Portraying, such as was the case with Vader, as an immutable, undefeatable villain would have undermined this point. He can be defeated, he can be reasoned with, explain himself and his actions. However he is wrong, and that's why he is a threat.
Furthermore, for Rey to have a foible such as Vader would also not make sense. Her arc, unlike Luke's, is not based in wanting to be part of a larger world, but in being afraid that she's not worthy of living among the legends she grew up idolizing.
Luke's struggle (see ESB) is that he could become Vader; Rey's struggle is that she could become Kylo.
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"In the original trilogy it does exactly that during the battle of Endor :p"
It does a loop in 6? I don't recall that.
"What I am saying is that you are parroting the term Mary Sue without knowing what it means, or where it originated... Backpedaling out of your own thread is not a good look"
I'm just trying to accommodate people who may operate with a different definition of 'Mary Sue'. You seem to disagree with the usage thus if needed, I'll happily settle for referring to Rey as a crummy character who kills her own credibility and the tension in the film.
"I am suggesting they have no reason to dislike her, especially since they are short on manpower and on Force users"
I'm not asking for the people around her to dislike her, I'm asking for the characters around her to be neutral much like people were with Luke.
If you pay attention (I know, it's hard) to the fight he is clearly shown to have the upper hand even when wounded and emotionally distraught. Even working with "threat levels" he is still clearly the strongest fighter. It would be asinine to suggest he is weaker just because he lost. Like saying Vader is shit because he got shot down in the first movie.
Also I suggest watching TLJ if you are really hoping to see Rey outclassed and at her lowest point yet.
I get that but I would have preferred if Rey lost to him even with all his problems to help preserve his threat level. His defeat to someone who just recently learned about the force and summons it by simply whispering "the force" destroys that threat level, a threat level damaged by the same character who overcame his mind probe when he was healthy.
Quick round:
"Fix things and speak droid: it's her literal job"
Cool! Keep Rey's capabilities there so we can experience her growth and learning about the force from masters rather than from out of the blue
Fight well: grew up on a lawless scrap-collecting planet
I can buy that but a lot nicer if we could have seen her get her ass kicked so it would provide a better contrast to a more-capable Rey later on who learned through struggle and strife.
Kylo: he is clearly unwell and the film goes to great lenghts to portray him at such; the failed mind probe is not meant to show she's immune to mind probes (as the sequel shows), but to showcase furthermore Kylo's instability and very clear weaknesses
A shame this was established with cooperation from Rey. Tension is at an all-time low after this.
Always win: she was never kidnapped, she never had to run away while her opponent was unconscious
She was kidnapped only to rescue herself by using force powers she learns about on the fly.
"Rey doesn't have the same character arc as Luke" is not a flaw in storytelling
But a character who already has what's needed to succeed from the start generally makes for a boring story. That's lost potential.
Rey's story in the sequel is far more isolated from anyone elses, but even in TFA she frequently needs others help: Finn's when escaping the planet as he mans the turret, Han because he knows the galaxy better than she does, the Resistance to carry out the final mission etc.
I will say she's not as bad in TLJ from what I recall but I'm still finding her terribly imbalanced in TFA considering her pulling force powers out of nowhere and when up against Kylo Ren, the big baddy of TFA, she's regularly coming out on top. Would it have been so terrible if she didn't escape on her own but rather needed a bit of help there rather than learning another force power out of the blue?
Hell, she's straight up knocked out by Kylo on two separate occasions, AND as to run away from Storm Troopers. Your vision of Rey as someone who always comes out on top is not one supported by the film. It's in your head.
There were far too many times when she had the upper hand on Kylo in TFA. Had the upper hand on thugs and FO fighters. Never rescued. Yes, knocked out twice but the end result was the same both times: Rey comes out on top versus Kylo. It was Kylo who needed rescue the second time. Thankfully the planet splits and the fight ends there.
