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Biggerboat1 on 17 January 2018
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DonFerrari said:
Biggerboat1 said:

Just because a game has a story doesn't mean that it's narrative driven. Nearly all of the Nintendo games I mentioned have a story / story mode - but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the game's narration being the central consideration around which everything else is built - not just that it has a beginning, middle and end. You either don't get this or you don't want to get this.

And I didn't say all games have all of the traits that you're saying that Sony games have - I said - "do you know how many studios that would apply to?" - implying many studios - so obviously not all games - please read more carefully. And even if there are many studios that hold those traits in common, it doesn't mean that they all execute them as well as Sony, some do, some don't - but that's a different argument.

Re. Nintendo & visuals - go to any of Nintendo's platform and pick out the best looking games available on any of those systems - guess what, the majority are developed by Nintendo. They do make a point of making the games as beautiful as possible, it's simply the case that in recent history they've been constrained by the companies choice of hardware. The reason's for this choice is another subject entirely.

Look at the last generation in which the 3 hardware makers had rough parity in terms of power - GC/Xbox/PS2 - Metroid Prime 2, F-Zero GX,  hell even Starfox Adventures, to name a few, could go toe-to-toe with any game on the competing systems in terms of visuals.

Re. Zelda under a different IP developed by Sony - again, please read! I specifically said "If Zelda had been released as a Sony IP, with visuals befitting the PS4" - so your point about it being a weak graphical game are, again, misplaced. And a bland story... So you're telling me that GT's story mode is better than BOTW - come now...

"So please go away with your narrative that non-Nintendo are biased against Nintendo, but you and others Nintendo fans are unbiased, evaluating only on the merits of the game."

Again, you're simply being reductive & simplistic in your conclusions just to accomodate an outraged response. I have never said Non-Nintendo fans are biased. I'm happy for many consoles to exist and for many gamers to choose whichever they prefer. What I've said is that I believe that people who lazily write off Nintendo's catalogue of games as not for them are most likely holding some form of bias. I'm not asking everyone to own or even play Nintendo games, I'm asking them not to have the ignorance to write of a collection of games (which vary in every category) based on what they think they are like. And I'm more than willing to accept that there are biased Nintendo fans out there.

I've noticed that you get involved quite a lot in endless back and forths on this forum & the reason is because you don't actually argue the other person's points. You argue with the points you want them to have made. There's no point in writing a retort to a point that wasn't actually made or deliberately missing the point that they're actually trying to make in order to be pedantic.

If you look back at our discussion, you'll see that half the time has been spent by me correcting you on what you are interpretting me to have said.

Not sure if it's a deliberate move on your part, if it's not, then please see this as some constructive feedback.

1) Having a story and being narrative driven not being the same ok, but when you disconsider R&C as narrative driven you are wrong (and it isn't a Sony 1st party studio eitherway). Will wait for you to show that Nintendo gameplay first looks after isn't a common trait cohesive approach. Also Nintendo HW is developed with the underpower because Nintendo doesn't care as much for the graphical output as Sony and MS.

2) Nope, sorry Nintendo doesn't try to make games as pretty as possible, they try to do it as pretty as possible on their own line of development using cartoonish graphics that adhere to low power consumption. If they were really worried about graphics their system would have more power as well. And GC was the last gen Nintendo was at least caring as show as they stop developing the power of the system.

3) Have I said GT story is better than Zelda? Nope, you were the one trying to put Zelda as something that really have a story. And if you meant Zelda as being developed by Sony, HZD is selling way lower than Zelda while looking much better and having real story driven touch. But exactly what on your mind is Zelda under a different IP developed by Sony?

4) So you have been monitoring me, how strange for a 31 post count on a account with 1 month age... are you an alt by any chance? And nope you haven't really accept it, you think that someone disregarding the whole Nintendo IPs is because of uterior motives but don't think it is similar when Nintendo fanbase doesn't go and buy some 3rd parties at higher level than any Nintendo game on that genre.

5) It is simple as that: If there is a MP in a genre that is better than anything Nintendo offers there and it doesn't sell more than Nintendo games on that genre then it is clear that a good part of that userbase is dismissing all 3rd party games. You then try to put "you don't need to outsell a Nintendo game to be sucessful" that is an argument that wasn't made. It's funny that you accuse me of not addressing your points when you are inventing points that weren't made when you "correct my understanding"

1) As established earlier - I'm talking about 1st & 2nd party titles. Hence the inclusion of F-zero GX, Xenoblade etc. Is R&C more narrative driven than your average Zelda, Metroid or Xenoblade? Because essentially that's what we're establishing here. If R&C or GT are not more narrative driven than the games I've listed then your assertion that Sony's games are narrative driven and Nintendo's aren't is false & and in actual fact would support my position of both companies offering varied libraries without a single ethos linking them.

2) You're conflating 2 different issues here - the hardware and software. Nintendo has made decisions on their recent HW based on a variety of reasons, the latest being that the Switch is a hybrid. Their software very much does take visuals seriously which is why their games look the best on their given systems. If they didn't care about visuals then why do their games regularly look better than most of the competition on their systems???

3) You stated that a common trait of Sony games are that they are narrative driven - you then call BOTW's story bland (so not meeting Sony's standards) - so the only logical conclusion is that you are asserting that GT (and every other Sony game) has a better story than BOTW...

My guess is that Horizon is selling less than Zelda because it is by and large considered an inferior game - and review scores support this - you asked for evidence over opinions - well there you have it. Though tbh, I'm not interested in a BOTW vs Horizon debate - I'm sure I'd enjoy the 2nd a lot. The theoretical Zelda under Sony that I'm proposing would simply be new names/character models/and updated visuals to take advantage of the hardware - simples!

4) I used to visit the site regularly after the Wii launched but then fell off a couple of years after that - recently found myself back here when my interest was reignited by Switch. Over the last couple of months of generally lurking rather than posting I've noticed your tendency to tie an argument in knots by introducing random points and misinterpreting other's meanings. Nothing more suspicious than that.

For instance your assertion that a non-Nintendo game must outsell a Nintendo game within the same genre to prove that Nintendo fans are not biased... This makes no sense as generally Nintendo's offerings are of much higher quality - so... duh... You keep repeating this - how many times do I have to reply? Can you provide examples of where in your opinion a 3rd party title should have outsold a 1st/2nd?

5) If we're talking MP games - it makes sense that they sell better on other platforms as those who have access to multiple systems will buy them for the one which offers the best experience / framerate / visuals which is generally not Nintendo's version. Switch may change this as it offers portability in exchange of reduced fidelity, though I still think the majority will opt for the former.

"You then try to put "you don't need to outsell a Nintendo game to be sucessful" that is an argument that wasn't made. "

Fair enough, I'll concede this point - was probably not needed - though overall I think you have me at around 20-1 on the irrelevant point scoreboard!