Fate vs. Free Will

[Timmah!]

shams said:

Timmah! said:

@Shams

So essentially - what we think is free will - is actually fate, determined by a billion minor (and major) variables both within our minds, memory, driven by our external senses - and to a certain extent "randomness".

I think your definition implies a meaningless existence rather than fate. If everything is indeed determined by 'randomness', then you didn't have a choice to come up with and write that point, then your point is meaningless and might as well have never been written. I believe that Human beings are both physical and spiritual creatures, not simply a mess of chemicals comprising an advanced machine. Your definition fits animals, who react in all situations to their basic instincts, but I believe humans do not fit this definition.

I never said *everything* was random. Since we are effectively analog machines, there is almost going to be some "randomness" in the analog signals that bounce around our minds (a little like a bit of static on TV reception). In 99.9999% of cases it will make no difference to a "digital" outcome (i.e. do you buy something or not), but in a large enough population, and over a long enough time - it can create differences in outcomes.

I guess this comes to the core of the matter (and I have this exact discussion with my 'spiritual' partner all the time):

 - I do NOT believe in souls, spirits or anything else that follows those principles/ideas. (I am also an Athiest - born jewish - but that has minimal impact on this question).

 - I do believe that we ARE animals (and that we have evolved from them). We have just been lucky enough to make such significant advances over the last 100-1000 years, that we consider ourselves significantly above them these days (and we have evolved far beyond them).

My argument is simple: if you could have a time machine, and go back in time even... 2000 years - the "people" you see then would be effectively unrecognisable to us these days. They would appear to be completely primitive, and we WOULD consider them animals (and ourselves above them). Even though that they are the same as us.

The further back you go, the more pronounced the difference - until you basically can't recognise humanity in any form at all.

Evolution is a wonderful thing ;)

I'll be up for having a serious discussion re: evolution if anyone else wants to (i.e. go and create another thread...).

 

 

Sure thing... I really don't have that much time to keep up with all these debates, but I'd definitely put in my 2 cents in an evolution debate.

I understand your point that not everything is 'randomness'. That is in fact a very significant fact pointing to the existance of a God.

And the only real difference between people thousands of years ago and today is technology, intelligence was the same.