| Dravenet7 said: Purely for communication purposes? What's so hard about communicating that its a competitive action game, especially if its catagorization is an indicator of how it plays? What you're saying seems too presumptuous. In any case, yes, fighting game and competitive action game simply comes up to semantics for me. Ok so this whole type thing. Let's say that, for simply for the sake of example, we have Pikachu vs Garchomp fighting in two sets: standard vs types Let's say Pikachu has 100 health and Garchomp on average takes out 10 per blow Let's add types where it 1.4X or 14 per blow. That's almost 3 less needed on average. Now Pikachu's real health is 570. In this instance it would take 57 blows with standard attacks as opposed 41. Realistically Garchomp takes out much more on average than 10; let's say 25 for the sake of it. That's 23 blows standard vs 16 type. 7 blows is not a negligble difference. I say 25 on average, but that doesn't even account for a combo Garchomp would give or a grabs or specials. There are so many factors that accumulate that 1.4 extra damage is hardly something that can be seen as negligible. Giving a character like Pikachu an advantage over any character in the game with types, with type of combos he could land, would accumulate so quickly it would be easily unfair. In a competitive game where your main character is K.O'd 4-5 moves early by a character who happens to main another character, it becomes unfai, unbalanced, and uneccessary layer. This is all regardless of tier. Tiers are just indicators of which characters are seen as the most optimal in matchups because of their fighting style and fluidity. Which is why they are prone to change. They are simply educated opinions based on ease of use. It doesn't factually affect the game on a case by case basis. No one saying tiers don't exist because that's naturally going to happen. Yes, Pokken has assists that can defend you, heal you and buff you as well as one that can attack or debuff your opponent. It's absolutely fair. You know why it's fair? Its all available to every playable character in the game. No one playable Pokemon has exclusive assist Pokemon when fighting against a specific Pokemon. This is almost like complaining that every baker in a pie baking contest is allowed to add extra sweeteners on top of their pie that's available to everyone, but in a round where its an apple pie vs an orange pie, its unfair that the orange pie baker isn't allowed to put extra salt on the apple pie. If you can name me one fighting or competitive action game that gives one character a specific advantage over another character beyond actual fighting styles and is considered balanced then maybe you would have a point. However, it really reads that you are saying it will work and be balanced simply because you say so baseslessly. |
It's much less presumtuous than him outright saying it's not a fighting game, and then assuming he just changed his mind. The battle system is also based off a Wii action game. Like nearly verbatum. Adding multiplayer doesn't change its genre.
The Pikachu example doesn't work. Pikachu is only 2x weak to Ground. It would be 1.2x in this case. I said 1.4x for Garchomp because Garchomp is a special case and is 4x weak to ice. But fair enough. Semantics. I'll substitute Pikachu with Garchomp and Garchomp with Weavile.
It's not supposed to be a negligable difference. It just not a game changing difference. In a game with a roster of like 40 characters and the option to switch out to something else that can better handle the match up and other characters who will have the advantage against him, it all balances out. Weavile would have a strong type advantage over Garchomp. He'd have a poor type match up against fighting types Lucario or Machamp though as Weavile has a 4x weakness to fighting, who have a poor match up against Gardevoir being a psychic and fairy type, who has a poor match up against Gengar who is Ghost/Poison, and the list goes on. That's the very definition of balance. Balance doesn't mean everyone is on an even playing field. Balance means that everyone has a check and everyone checks someone else. Types have no effect on that existing. It just changes who checks who.
You can't look at this stuff in a bubble. Garchomp may take 1.4x damage from Weavile's ice moves, but not all of Weavile's moves are ice, and only using ice moves would limit Weavile's combo potential. You know, because Weavile doesn't only have ice moves and only ice moves would be super effective. Weavile is also a fast, but relatively weak character (in Pokken) as opposed to garchomp who is powerful and, you guessed it, still fast with a lot of HP. Garchomp's dragon moves still hit Weavile for very powerful neutral damage Weavile is very fragile, so the resistance to ground type moves aren't going to help it much. Garchomp could have a positive match up to literally every other character in the game but Weavile thanks to that type edge.
This isn't turn based. ALL factors matter in determining a match up, not just types. Garchomp could very well end up having the match up over Weavile because his arcenal is good enough to weather its weaknesses. Saying that it's unfair to have a Pokemon KO'd 5 turns early makes no sense. It's a match up. That's like saying it's not fair that it's not fair that Ganondorf kills Pikachu at low percents in Smash. Of course it is. Sucks for Pika, but that's just part of how the game balances out. Some characters are better against other. If types didn't exist in Pokemon at all, there would still be tierlists. There would still be Uber and there would still be UU. It would just be completely different in who is where. Is it "unfair" that Volcarona get's OHKO'd by rock moves? No, it's just a bad match up, and Volcarona is fast enough and strong enough to take out most Pokemon who would use those moves before they can. THAT is balance.
I never said that assists weren't fair, I'm saying that so are types. It doesn't matter if assists are available to everyone. Types are available to everyone too. You can chose any type on your team, just like you can have any assist Pokemon with any effect. Every Pokemon has a type. I don't get what you're trying to say there.
So types are fair, and types are balanced. That's settled. As for it not being necessary, that's just silly. This is a Pokemon game. Most of these Pokemon would literally not exist if it weren't for the importance of types. Of course it's necessary. It's just not game changing. It's not broken. You're not going to have a match against a type your weak against and then rage quit because you stand no chance.
I don't have to give you a fighting game, because Pokken isn't one, but Darksiders 2 had a 1v1 multiplayer mode that played very similar to Pokken. It had elemental weaknesses and resists. No one complained. You're speaking like you've never even heard of Pokemon types before. Do you even know what they do? Their entire function is to be a balancing tool. The entire reason there's a type chart is for balance. You know what balance is, right? It doesn't mean that everyone can equally take on everyone. It means that everyone has checks that stop them from being the most dominant one and that eventual dominant one isn't so overwhelmingly dominant that it's unfair. That's literally how types function. For types to be unbalanced in Pokken, they'd have to be unbalanced everywhere, including the main games, because their effect is identical. They change the way damage is dealt. It would to it in almost the exact same way to almost the exact same Pokemon. If Pikachu being weak to ground isn't unbalanced in the main games where he'll die in one hit at full health, it won't be unbalanced in Pokken where he'll die only two or three hit's early out of whatever number you make up to represent Garchomp's hits to kill Pika, and he has the tools to block, dodge, counter, and be a better and more technical fighter outside of pure stats.
And switch out to Weavile.
