Final-Fan said:
cookingyourmama said:
I've never read so much boring text in my entire life before, you drone on and on about points that don't matter and aren't relevent whilst actually thinking you're proving me wrong when you aren't and then if i reply to everything which takes ages and is a waste of time anyway, you then say my posts are long as well and if i ignore all the pointless points you make you some how think you've proven me wrong because i don't reply. |
I'm truly impressed. You come SO close, but never quite make what I can wholeheartedly call a personal attack, always staying in the safe territory of "sneering" and "avoiding the point".
| I have given examples of people i know in gaming who all say everybody they know hates making wii games, you don't have to believe me because it's just my word but my point to you is cherry picking 2 developers when their are 10,000's of people out their who make games doesn't prove that the majority of developers enjoy making wii games, so you haven't proved me wrong. |
Did you miss the part where he explains that YOUR OWN post regarding developers disliking working on the Wii was talking not about "random EA hacks" but "the wii isn't stealing away any of the major games and developers are just choosing to put them on the pc/ps3/360 at the same time" (Spore and MH3, among others, disprove the ANY) and "The best developers want to make the best games and the wii simply doesn't interest them." Unless you think that Will Wright and Gabe Newell don't count as among "the best developers" but your friends at EA do count as such, then you have completely dodged the point.
What makes you so sure (as you apparently are) that your friend and HIS friends (that you know about), who don't like to develop for the Wii, represent developers as a whole? If his Wii projects were "port this crappy PS2 game over to the Wii" his dislike is understandable, and it would make his friends (probably coworkers) also unlikely to love the Wii. But this is all sheer speculation, just like YOUR speculation that your friends at EA speak for the industry in ways that the creators of Half-Life and Sim City do not.
noname2200 doesn't have to prove that the majority of developers want to develop on the Wii; he has presented a compelling case that a great number of them SHOULD and a significant cross-section DO. Rather, it is YOUR place to show that he is wrong and/or that your claims which have so far been UNSUBSTANTIATED by real evidence past "well my friend and his buddies hate the Wii too." Are you aware of the tendency of like-minded people to associate with one another? Birds of a feather and so on. If I ask for a show of hands of who's read the Lord of the Rings at a tabletop gaming convention, I bet it'll be a bigger percentage than if I ask your friends at EA.
| I never said their weren't any quailty 3rd party games out on the wii right now because their are, however their are no where as many qauilty 3rd party games on the wii as their on the 360 or ps3. Looking to the future i gave you a big long list of quality 3rd party games coming out this year for the 360 and ps3 and you have only mentioned two that are coming out for the wii and claim that their will be many more, well until this many more show up it's just your wishfull thinking. |
Maybe you aren't aware of this but "List Warz", as noname2200 succintly put it (perhaps too succinctly, as you apparently missed it!), are a horrible way to conduct a debate, especially if you just slap everything you can find into it. How "qauilty" do you really expect 50 Cent to be?
| You then go on and waste more paragraphs by saying i was talking about casual games and hardcore games. However that wasn't the case i clearly said their was a third type of game, which is a type of game that appeals to both casual and hardcore gamers. I gave a set of criteria that these 3 types of games GENERALLY FOLLOW do you know generally means? It means most of the time not always, so picking out a few of the exceptions doesn't not prove me wrong. |
Uh huh. And what evidence did you give that, say, GTA actually had a bigger proportion of "hardcore" audience than Mario Kart did? None, you say? Because you don't have any?
The "hardcore" idea has always seemed to me to be that there was an elite group of people that were bigger, better, more demanding, more discerning of games than the rest of the riffraff. Going by this idea, any game that got the ridiculous sales levels of GTA or Mario or Gran Turismo or Halo would almost HAVE to be selling mostly to casuals. Games that have "mass appeal" are by definition "appealing to the masses", and guess what? The masses are casual.
| You keep claiming the wii is stealing 360 and ps3 3rd party support when it is not to any significant degree. You can only mention 1 game which means nothing to the dozens of new 3rd party games that get annouced for the 360 and ps3. Then onto ea and it's new teams, you claim that ea did not bring in new people which is laughable when developers constantly advertise for new people to join them, as you seem to think that these new teams were all formed from people already in the company then show me the ea teams that were making 360 and ps3 games that have shut down and been moved onto making these wii games. |
Companies hire people. That is because people quit, retire, etc. This is not peculiar. I'm sure that they did hire a bunch of people, but are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that they will start a new division with no significant amount of senior talent? Even if they did hire all-new staff, that's still money/resources/people that could have goen somewhere else! EA doesn't work its employees on nothing, contrary to what your friends may have told you. It just seems that way.
| I love how when i present you with a list of 3rd party games that the 360 and ps3 will be getting this year to show you what a list of quality games looks like you call it 'list warz', more like you can't present a list for the wii that comes close to that. Then you go on about why i don't talk about the ps3 and it's 3rd party sales. The ps3 is selling poorly compared to what it was expected to sell before launch and what do you expect, the wii with double the ps3's install base sells more 3rd party software, do you want a cookie for that? Why is that worth mentioning it's just obvious that should be the case. |
Not "can't". "Won't." Because it's a ridiculous thing to do. And I thought you said these posts were too long already? The lists are huge in the first place, and they're worthless anyway unless you can actually establish the quality of the titles on them and the relative quality to the titles on the other list etc. etc. And it's all going to be obsolete anyway when a crapload of things get revealed at the convention. As for the PS3, are you being stupid on purpose or by accident? It doesn't matter TO PUBLISHERS how awesome the attach rate is if publishing on the Wii can get more sales at higher profit and less risk (sunk costs per game). This has been explained multiple times by noname and (I believe) others.
| Like you said the developers are the only people that matter so until the developers start puting out more quality 3rd party games on the wii than the 360 and ps3 then their opinion is it's better to make quality games for the 360 and ps3. |
Wrong. After they change their opinions, they start making the game, and many months LATER we find out about it. It is noname2200's position, as well as that of the great majority of the rational posters on these forums, that the shift in opinion has already taken place; the games are in the works.
| You're yet to prove me wrong but you honestly think you have so i don't expect that to change, the wii's 3rd party sales get critized for vaild reasons and with the release of gta4 don't expect that to change anytime soon either. |
Just because you don't admit you've been shown to be wrong doesn't mean it never happened. I think you actually believe otherwise, which is really an alien thought pattern to me. As for criticism of the Wii's third party sales -- I'm sure it does get criticized for valid reasons, but not by you. |
If you'd actually bothered reading all the posts nonname2200 had left me you would have seen that he was the one who started acting cocky, condrasending and writing snide remarks to me. So why aren't you commenting on his remarks i wonder, double standards?
So when i said the wii wasn't stealing any 3rd party support i was over stating the point. The odd title has gone to the wii but so far people have only been able to name two games, that's monster hunter 3 and spore that have moved. If their are more significant 3rd party games that are coming to the wii over the other consoles then please feel free to post them, i'm all ears. So when you have 40-50+ top 3rd party games that are coming to the 360 and or ps3 and not the wii vs the two that are coming to the wii and not the 360 and ps3 do you see that as being equal? When that is the case and wii is not getting any where near the quailty of games the 360 and ps3 are then why is it unfair to critize the wii's third party support?
Just because noname2200 has quoted 2 people who make games out of the 10,000's that do, and those 2 said they want to make wii games then that some how represents a 'great number' of people and a 'significant cross-section'? No not a chance. I presented my theory based on the developer friends i have and their other developer friends and wether you choose to believe me or not the fact is right now the wii doesn't have anywhere near the amount of quality 3rd party games the 360 or ps3 does and so far this year more new quality 3rd party games have been annouced for the 360 and ps3 than the wii. Yet again you don't have any conclusive proof that a whole host of exclusive quality 3rd party games are coming to the wii your just guessing, well until they show up it's just wishfull thinking and whilst my own personal guess is some will be annouced they will still pale in comparision to the amount of quality 3rd party games coming to the ps3 and 360.
I didn't 'slap everything' into the list i made of 3rd party games coming to the 360 and ps3 i actually left out a hell of a lot of games that are probably going to be garbage but the list was still so big that a few games on it probably won't be quality but again your just nit picking when the vast majority of that list will end up being quailty games and my point still stands.
Like i said but you have failed to read their are games that appeal to both casual and hardcore gamers and gta4 is one of them. But you know what the original point of that discussion was that noname2200 had to try and divert attention away from? The only reason why this weeks 3rd party sales between the 360 and wii are close is due to developers not wanting to release any major 3rd party games for the 360 that will go head to head with gta4. Now the wii hasn't received any major 3rd party exclusives either but the difference is wii 3rd party games generally start of slower than 360 ones but have longer legs, so by week 5 even tho the 360's 3rd party ltd's are greater than the wii ones the wii's games with longer legs are now generally selling more and make the wii's 3rd party sales closer then what they normally are to the 360's. The best way to desribe it is sales spikes, this week the difference between the two was 100k~ but 5 weeks ago it was 700k~ when gta4 comes out it will spike again. Cherry picking the point where the wii gets the closest to the 360 in 3rd party sales is not the correct way to show how wii sales are doing, an average should be taken covering several weeks and months and that average shows a healthy lead for the 360 with significantly less hardware on the market.
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me what major 360 and or ps3 games were cancelled by ea so new teams could be formed to make wii games. Even if no games were cancelled then do you have any conclusive proof that a new 360 or ps3 team was about to be created but a wii team was created instead? Because if the answer is ea were perfectly happy with the amount of 360 and ps3 teams they had but felt they needed more wii teams then the 360 and ps3 lost nothing.
When talking about quality 3rd party games and showing what a quality line up the wii is facing from the other consoles, why is it 'ridiculous' to make a list of them? The only problem people have with making a list to prove a point is when they know the list they'd have to make would be much shorter and prove the other person right. But hey i'll wait for all these new quality 3rd party wii games you say are coming out and i'll let you tell me if the amount of quality wii games matches the competition, can't say fairer then that.
