| thechinesenoob said: I think basically what he is trying to say is that he believes that Melee is a much better spectator sport than SSB4 will be. The hype and speed of Melee is what has kept it alive and growing for the past 15 years. Melee had it's biggest year ever in 2014 and is slated for an even bigger year in 2015 (there was already a day where Melee had 6 100 player tournaments in one day, whereas about 5 years ago there were maybe 6 100 player tournaments per year). This is because Melee is, in the eyes of most people (not necessarily my opinion), way more fun to watch. I followed the tournament pretty closely as I love competitive smash and about 60000 people were watching melee and 20000 people were watching SSB4 throughout the day. For the grand finals, SSB4 had about 70000-80000 viewers and Melee had 110000-120000 viewers. The defensive mechanics in SSB4 (strong shield, ledge play, fewer movement options, lower hitstun, etc) lead it to being much slower paced. The top 8 of SSB4 took approximately as long as the top 8 for Melee despite Melee having double the amount of stocks per game and 11 more games being played in Melee top 8. If you enjoy the mechanics in SSB4, great that's your choice, but theres no denying that the mechanics lead to much slower games and in most people's opinions (again not necessarily mine or yours, but just in general) this makes the game more boring to watch. Of course, this could always change as the metagame for SSB4 develops, and as players get better the game will inevitably change. One of the reasons Brawl was only successful for about 5 years was because as players got better the game actually got slower because they dropped the Melee mentality of fast, aggressive gameplay. This lead to matches becoming slower and less appealing to spectators as time went on, whereas Melee has gotten faster and faster. Although the comments earlier that Brawl was a complete failure competitively are horribly misled. Brawl absolutely dominated the competitive scene in 2007 and 2008 and it appeared at the time that Melee was going to die off. Melee recently became popular due in part to the release of the smash bros documentary (definitely would recommend watching it, although it doesn't do Brawl justice). As to earlier comments about wavedashing and Melee mechanics, from personal experiences and what top players have said, dash-dancing is actually a much more important movement option that has been taken out in SSB4. Someone earlier incorrectly said that dash-dancing is in SSB4 when it isn't, SSB4 has foxtrotting which is also in Melee, but not nearly as useful as dash-dancing so no one uses it. Also in response to OP, I can see where the Melee crowd was coming from as Melee was the main event and was delayed 3 or 4 hours, but it was still terribly disrespectful and I hate that this negative trash is what people will see first when looking at the smash community |
I've been reading the debate between you and Wyrdness and I just want to applaud your informative and factual posts in general in this thread. I didn't know that Brawl dominated the competitive scene for a couple of years, and that Melee was dying out and has had a revival. And with the viewing figures you quoted, the SSB4 figures aren't that bad when you consider its new, and that Melee is enjoying a huge surge of popularity at the moment.
"Melee is actually very easy to access contrary to popular belief. It is actually much much easier to acquire a Melee setup than a SSB4 setup (HDTV+WIIU+SSB4+adaptor is well over 400$). Literally everyone has a Wii (or has a friend who doesn't want theirs anymore), and CRT's can be acquired for about $10 at a thrift shop, disc is probably between $30 and $60 depending on where you live."
A good point well made, and could become even more influential as the years go by if a new competitive player has to make the choice as to which game he's going to play. It would be a shame if the popularity of a game is dictated by the availability of the setup in this way.
(EDIT: - As pointed out by Wyrdness - things may go a very different way in Europe, because of the differences in set up accesibility)
"Yeah obviously the top Melee players are Melee minded, and similarly Melee minded players are going to listen. Their voices personally have no impact on me or what game I choose to play competitively. But they will on many Melee players who are considering jumping to SSB4. If a player like Mang0 says he dislikes SSB4, a lot of the people who follow him will be dissuaded from playing it."
This I find very sad. Of course, high profile players have a right to state their opinion, and whether intended or not, whatever they say is going to influence many people. But it's the idiots who just won't give a new game a chance, and seem to think that anything that deviates from Melee is immediately substandard, and deserves a subjective bashing without any form of rationalisation that cause the real damage to the game.
We've seen evidence of that behaviour in this very thread - calling SSB4 'some new casual bs', 'more casual than brawl', and implying that tourney players who play anything other than Melee are not real tourney players.
And I do wonder whether there are elements of the Melee community who may feel threatened with every new iteration that comes out, and feel the need to fiercely defend themselves. What you say about Brawl dominating in 2007 when the Melee scene was weak, and then the problem with Nintendo attempting to ban streams of Melee at EVO a couple of years back, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, at least to some degree.
I want to give a perspective from a 'casual' player, and I hope it will be respected by anyone reading it, despite me referring to myself as 'casual'.
I have never played Melee, but I've watched a lot of recordings of tournament play, and while my eye might not be as well trained to recognise all the nuances of the game, I enjoy watching it. With Brawl I (and the kids) made use of every feature and mode in the game. Almost always, items were turned on and we just mashed buttons until somebody won. It was fun, a laugh, but that's what casual is all about.
SSB4 has changed the way I (and the kids) play Smash. For Fun mode is shunned. Items are turned off when we play. I've noticed that the kids (if playing solo) spend more time 'training' or going one-on-one online than engaging in any of the other features like they did with Brawl. I'm finding myself doing the same. We are becoming more competitive in the way that we play. We find ourselves talking about moves and tactics and trying out new combos, something we never did before.
Why? I don't know - it's just that with SSB4 it feels more like it lends itself to exploring and improving your technique than Brawl ever did. Now you could probably point to various technical reasons why that might be so (and I probably won't understand them!) but my point is this:
If the way SSB4 has been designed can influence people currently at the casual end of the spectrum to make the transition and become more competitve in the way that they play, then there is potential for SSB4 to be as successful as and co-exist with Melee on the tournament scene.
Sadly, there are factors which stand in SSB4's way, and not least is the elitist element of the Melee fanbase who seem bent on not giving it a chance by badmouthing it simply because it is "not Melee".
But, like you, I sincerely hope that SSB4 does find its form, and I'm fascinated to see how the game will develop. I've watched recordings of some of the more recent SSB4 tourneys and they're just as enjoyable for me as Melee.
