IkePoR said:
MTZehvor said:
Not saying it's impossible for him to be good, just that it's unlikely.
I am saying that I'm totally discounting the possibility for him to be the next Meta Knight. Heavy characters, regardless of how good they are, always have a few bad-terrible MUs that can be exploited (Snake has Pikachu/Olimar, Wario has Marth/Dedede, Dedede has Ice Climbers/Pikachu/ZSS). There's no way he's going to be the best character, let alone Meta Knight levels of best character.
In regards to Wario, though...Wario's also a bit of a special case in that regard. He's fairly small for his weight, so his bad range on jabs is compensated for. He also has an incredible amount of recovery tools (which Bowser does not), fantastic air mobility (again, Bowser does not), and he has numerous safe approach options (again, unlike Bowser).
My point is that pretty much every good "big" character in Smash Bros has something else to back them up besides "they hit hard," because hitting hard can always be worked around with enough practice (see Sentinel in MvC3). Dedede has excellent recovery, a long grab with a chain throw that can follow up on almost anyone, and a decent zoning game. Snake has a good zoning game, his mines can make life hell for anyone who has to approach, and fast jabs. The closest any big character comes to being good while just possesing extra power/weight (i.e. no zoning game or the likes) would be Ganondorf from SSBM. I could picture Bowser possibly being close to him, but honestly Melee Ganondorf looks much better than 3DS Bowser did in that tournament.
Then again, it is on an entirely new system, and it is a game that hasn't released yet, so I obviously can't judge that much. All I'd say is to excercise more than a little caution before we all rush off to crown Bowser as king of Smash, because there have been heavy characters like this before that have looked broken and then turn out to just be ok-ish (I'll reference Sentinel in MvC3 once more). No one knows the ins and outs of characters for Smash 4 yet, and it's more than likely that Bowser just happens to be the easiest character to simply pick up and play.
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Before MK, no one expected anyone to be MK levels of good but he is. D3 and Snake's bad MU's are because of Brawl grab bs. Not denying your argument but still, if we're going to count CG's and GR's and Olimar's stupid PG, we can count Bowsers GR nonsense too. Bowser could have SA on all of his shell attacks, upB could come out on frame 2 and kill at 110%(with SA), neutral B could do 5% per hit with zero cooldown, jab could have 10 frames of hitstun... etc.
Highly unlikely, yes. Totally impossible? Well I'm not calling Sakurai an idiot but stranger thing have happened.
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Right, hence the:
"Theoretically, yes, Bowser could be top tier if he could hit hard enough. Then again, you could make any character top tier by letting them hit hard enough."
I guess swap the word "fast" into that sentence as well for the sake of that argument.
Anyway, my point by bringing up MUs is simply to say that big characters are far more susceptible to these sorts of things. Meta Knight is a much more likely candidate to wind up broken because he fits the stereotypical mold for top tier characters; he's small, fast, excellent air mobility, numerous recovery options, fantastic rushdown game. Bowser is arguably the exact opposite of this, so the chance that he would wind up with no bad MUs the same way MK did is infantescimally small.
By saying "totally discounting," I'm basically taking it as a given in the same way I'm taking the Earth remaining in the Sun's orbit as a given. Not entirely impossible, I realize, but the likelihood of such a thing occurring is incredibly tiny.
And yes I did just compare fighting game tier lists to a catastrophic event that would end all life on Earth.
