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MTZehvor on 03 August 2014
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IkePoR said:
MTZehvor said:

Ike is 23rd out of 38, so low-ish tier.

Theoretically, yes, Bowser could be top tier if he could hit hard enough. Then again, you could make any character top tier by letting them hit hard enough.

Snake is certainly high tier (although he's fallen a bit since Brawl's release), but, again, as you mentioned, that's due to his range, speed, and effectiveness in projectiles. Bowser has meh range, still subpar speed if this video is anything to by, and his only projectile (if it can really be called that) is his neutral special, which has awful range as far as projectiles go and isn't exactly an effective zoning tool like Snake's.

Well yeah.  But a character like Wario has terrible range but hits like a truck, lives forever and has good speed in his aerials and air speed; he's one of the best in the game.  Bowser could be the same way. Maybe he has superarmor on some moves and/or good grabs?  Don't know but it's entirely possible for him to be high without being small and fast - look at PM.

AgentZorn said:
sundin13 said:

Tournaments will obviously ban custom movesets, and you aren't allowed to use custom movesets against randoms online, so tier lists will not have to factor them in.

True, but it would be a waste to completly disregard a major feature of the game.

Pro players have been doing it with items for years.

Not saying it's impossible for him to be good, just that it's unlikely.

I am saying that I'm totally discounting the possibility for him to be the next Meta Knight. Heavy characters, regardless of how good they are, always have a few bad-terrible MUs that can be exploited (Snake has Pikachu/Olimar, Wario has Marth/Dedede, Dedede has Ice Climbers/Pikachu/ZSS). There's no way he's going to be the best character, let alone Meta Knight levels of best character.

In regards to Wario, though...Wario's also a bit of a special case in that regard. He's fairly small for his weight, so his bad range on jabs is compensated for. He also has an incredible amount of recovery tools (which Bowser does not), fantastic air mobility (again, Bowser does not), and he has numerous safe approach options (again, unlike Bowser).

My point is that pretty much every good "big" character in Smash Bros has something else to back them up besides "they hit hard," because hitting hard can always be worked around with enough practice (see Sentinel in MvC3). Dedede has excellent recovery, a long grab with a chain throw that can follow up on almost anyone, and a decent zoning game. Snake has a good zoning game, his mines can make life hell for anyone who has to approach, and fast jabs. The closest any big character comes to being good while just possesing extra power/weight (i.e. no zoning game or the likes) would be Ganondorf from SSBM. I could picture Bowser possibly being close to him, but honestly Melee Ganondorf looks much better than 3DS Bowser did in that tournament.

Then again, it is on an entirely new system, and it is a game that hasn't released yet, so I obviously can't judge that much. All I'd say is to excercise more than a little caution before we all rush off to crown Bowser as king of Smash, because there have been heavy characters like this before that have looked broken and then turn out to just be ok-ish (I'll reference Sentinel in MvC3 once more). No one knows the ins and outs of characters for Smash 4 yet, and it's more than likely that Bowser just happens to be the easiest character to simply pick up and play.