| Skidonti said: Less fucking bloom. Never pull a WWHD again, Nintendo. never. I think voice acting is a distinct design choice we don't necessarily need to be modern, but I'd totally be down for it, I'd juts have to be convinced by hearing it first.
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I definitely understand that. I think I've grown fond of their grunts and such over the years.
Pretty much the land segments, yeah. The thing is, the reason I didn't enjoy the SS land segments actually shows up in the way you described them. They were segmented; devided amongst each other. It didn't feel like an open world as much as several large rooms. If these areas were seamlessly connected to each other, and less linear, it would feel a lot better. Like I should, in theory, be able to walk from Lanayru to Eldin without a hitch. I wan't to be able to see one side of the map in the horizon of the other, and walk there with out the game needing to load anything. No loading and no fade to black, just a giant universal world. That's why when Aonuma says things like "I want to replecate that feeling of skyrim," I get both nervous and excited. Excited because it hints at that seamless expanse that I want, but nervous because Skyrim lacks the content density I want.
kekrot said:
I'm not saying that I like the 3D Zeldas to be dragged out like the fetch quests in SS, but I feel that in a fully 3D world, you can't just directly translate the gameplay from the 2D Zeldas. That makes most of the 3D unneccessary, and then it would be just as good as a 3DS ALBW style game. Imagine the dungeons in ALBW with home console controls and camera. They would feel cramped and small. So if you're making a full 3D game, it's bound to be longer and bigger, for better or worse. |
For me, the issue arises when the padding is forced on the player. I understand altering the pace of the game, but that's something that can be done in even the 2D games. I don't remember any I've played where I didn't just muck aboutand tinker, but that was my choice. The game didn't force me to stop the game's pacing so it could load the next area, and that's what bothers me about the 3D games. Even in instances where I enjoyed it, like with WW, I could totally see why people loathed it.
I'd argue that you absolutely can translate the gameplay from the 2D Zelda's. SS does it closer than any 3D Zelda has. None of SS's land segments feel "unessesary," yet they all follow the phylosophy of the 2D games. The problem is that these areas are extremely segmented. The areas them selves can be huge, Eldin Volcano is an example, but it comes at the sacrifice of not being connected, thus feeling linear. The levels them self aren't linear, but the way they connect with each other is. You have to play the game in a set order, and this together with how segmented the world is makes the world feel much farther than it is. This is a direct result of the sky hub. Basically, it's all of the area's like in ALttP before the dungeons, but without all of the puzzleless routes that connect these all together. If SS had a bunch connecting routes that brought all of these areas together in a cohesive way, SS would have been an infinitely more enjoyable experience.
The thing that keeps the 3D version of the 2D game design special is that the sense of scale. No one feels like Lanayru desert is cramped or feels like 2D level design, even though it follows the same design phylosophy as just about every 2D Zelda game. My problem isn't that the games are bigger, it's that a lot of the area's are useless space. Hyrule Field is useless space. Termina field is useless space. The great sea, while by far the best plot device for that, is a lot of empty space. The sky is literally all empty space. These thinks bring the pacing to a screaching halt, and these are the areas in 2D Zelda's where the most memorable exploration usually happens.
In OoT, Hyrule Field made sense. An area that huge that connected the related worlds just hadn't been done before. That sense of scale was huge and added to the games atmosphere. We don't need that anymore, though. The areas in modern Zelda games all completely dwarf Hyrule Field. I keep going back to Eldin, but it's true. Eldin in SS is much larger than Hyrule Field was, and you're never without something to do there, as opposed to Hyrule Field where you are always without much to do. In 2D Zelda's, the overworld is one world. In 3D Zelda's, the overworld is an almost empty hub.
In ALBW, when you take out all of the areas that are meant to directly lead up to dungeons (basically that game's versions of Eldin, Lanayru, and Faron) you still have a ton of things to do and explore. You had numerous completely optional dungeons, Treaturous Tower, the Maiamai Cave and it's quest, Hyrule Castle, Your house, Kakiriko Village, a cemetary, the Lost Woods, the witches house, the fortune teller's house, various secret caves, an intricate system of interconnected rivers that all lead to Lake Hylia, the sanctuary, the Cuccoo Ranch, the Rupee Rush place, the oasis, and all of Lorule. And you can walk directly to all of these places seamlessly without a giant boring open field to separate them. I'm probably forgetting stuff to, but my point is, that's everything we miss out on my having a hub area like Hyrule Feild instead of interconnected routes that promote exploration an make the world as a whole feel larger.
| Never said: 1. "Bring back young Link!" I have no issue with young link or teenage link. 2. "Scrap the motion controls" I agree... Though it might be nice to keep the option of motion control. That would be tough to do, since the two styles are incompatable. You can't cut in precise angles with standard controls, which means that some enemies would either be impossible to kill, or too easy, depending on how they decide to deal with that. It's not the horse that's the problem, it's the reason it is nessesary. I never felt like any of those games were clostrophobic. Maybe SS if anything, but being more interconnected and seemless like I'm suggesting would completely solve that. Like I said, I only want them to be like the Darknuts from Wind Waker or the giant Moblins from Skyward Sword. Nothing major. You'd be suprised how many people can't handle change, lol. 10. "Don't forget improvements from previous titles" Yes. That's an issue of lacking exploration though. SS was dungeon leadup-dungeon-boss-dungeon leadup-dungeon-boss. There was no exploration in between those areas, so they weren't as fun. SS had horrible pacing and a giant empty hub world like what has been in every 3D Zelda game isn't the answer. But every Zelda game has the puzzle like dungeon lead up. SS's where just larger in scale and had no interconnecting routes to break them up like the 2D games have. I'm not saying that I don't want a good story, but there are things like the wolf form in TP which was a plot point before it was a game mechanic, and that made those sections shallow and unbarable to many. Make the game fun first, and then craft a story around that. People will forgive a simple story if the game is amazing. They will not be as forgiving if the oposite happens. You'd fall in love with Roc's Cape then lol. It's like the leaf, only you can jump first and glide farther. 16. "Scrap item-themed dungeons" The item dungeon rule makes ensuring you have the right tool for the job easier. It also helps give the dungeons an identity. Dungeons don't need an item to have an identity. If the level design is good enough, that shouldn't be a problem. The water temple in SS isn't memorable because of the whip. The mansion in TP isn't memorable because of the ball and chain... Well actually, that's a bad example. It totally is. Yeah it is. ALBW did that so right. No it hasn't. It's literally a result of 3D Zelda games trying to be OoT. That isn't a "Zelda" staple. Two worlds is. TP was a culprit to. If it started out like ALBW, of quicker if that's even possible, I'd be estatic. Neither would I. Keep them on the level of WWHD, ALBW, and OoT3D. Nothing more. ...It's called The Legend of Zelda. She's a more important character than link. The only reason MM got away with it was because it was a direct sequel to a game with her in it. |
Comments in BOLD.
| F0X said: Wishlists tend to be an exercise in disappointment, but I do remember being fairly accurate with my Skyward Sword wishlist... hmm. Eh, why not? I'd be down for that. 2. An expansion of ideas introduced in Skyward Sword and A Link Between Worlds. Intelligent puzzle and enemy encouter design a la Skyward Sword, along with the stamina meter and upgrade system. At least some nonlinear progression would be nice, and incorporating exploration more directly into puzzle-solving would be beyond wonderful (a big reason why I love ALBW). I think it needs to be more than just some. Aonuma really needs to take the whole "tackle any dungeon in any order" thing seriously. And like I said, it's all about having dense and seamlessly connected routes to and from every major area. Once that is taken care of, everything else should fall into place. 3. Remember the Triforce: action, exploration, puzzle. If Nintendo neglects one of these elements, I might actually dislike the game. Like how I dislike Zelda II and Spirit Tracks. Definitely. 4. Surprise me by putting the Wii U hardware to good use for once. :/ There are a lot of ways to do that, though. I hope they put more effort in to things like lighting and particles than realistic textures. It should be the Mario Kart 8 of Zelda's. It's propelled by it's artstyle so much that people say it looks next gen. |
Comments in BOLD.
burninmylight said:
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No one thought about it because it wasn't nessesary. It has nothing to do with being a top down 2D world. If ALttP had a giant, barren field in the midde of the world, people would notice and they would absolutely ask for a way to travel it faster. And the world in ALttP is monumentally huge for the type of game it is, especially for it's time, and especially when compared to any of the 3D Zelda's. If the ALttP was blown up to the scale of a 3D Zelda, it would be Wind Waker's size, but with the endless ocean, and with an entire darkworld.
But apples to apples. Okay. SS's land segments are literally 2D Zelda game design almost flawlessly translated into a 3D Zelda game. No one played the land segments of Skyward Sword and thought "gee wiz, I really wish I had a horse right about now."
| Jumpin said: No irritating portions like collecting the triforce pieces, or sneaking around. Make it very adventurous and large. No huge sparse locations. Make stuff to do all over the place. Make interesting towns with interesting people who have parts in the story. Make a game that is better than X, because Skyward Sword fell very short of Xenoblade, and it should have been a lot better than it was. |
Pretty much this. Actually, all of this.
