I want young Link back!!!

[Frogger]

Gnac said:

spemanig said:

Better.

The Hyrule field "infatuation" is nothing but a product of limited hardware. The N64, GCN, and Wii simply aren't powerful enough to make a game as vast and dense as the 2D games. It's not an act of self marturbation, it's a consession to limited hardware. It's why SS is linear, why TP is barren, and why WW got it right. Its the graphical equivilant to the loading screen cutscenes in Metroid Prime. There is simply no other way to do this on hardware that weak. Epona, the boat, and the bird weren't added to make traversing more fun, it was to make traveling quicker. The enemies, islands, and secrets where made to make the game more "fun." It's not something he "loves," rather a nessesity to make a game like Zelda possible on a console.

I think WW handles it fantastically because it lends to the feeling of a vast world when it's literally nothing more than an interactive loading screen. You know, like the ones in Assasin's Creed where you run around and do nothing for thirty seconds. Only this time, it's a core game mechanic where there are enemies, loot, and things to find. The biggest and most important thing is that the whole world was seamless. The only time anything faded to black was when you went inside something. Inside a house. Inside a building. Inside a volcano. But traveling from one side of the world to the other? Not one, and along the way, there where obstacles to halt your progression, islands to explore, and maps to fill. MM did it perfectly because it was frankly a much smaller game than OoT. Because it was a sequel, it got away with a map size that frankly wouldn't have flown had it been a modern day stand alone Zelda. Not that that's a problem; I'm praising MM for it.

This "hyrule field" worked in OoT because, quite frankly, there had never been a game world that large and connected before. It failed in TP because there had been plenty of game worlds that large by then, and the flaws of that kind of anchient game design became blaringly more apparent, especiallty when literally no serious changes where made to fix this. The field was still just a barren town hub, and because there wasn't much to do, it served to make the world feel small, rather than large. You felt like you were in a huge room, not a vast field. Skyward Sword screwed up because it misunderstood why WW's sea worked. The sky wasn't seamless, there were no obstacles while flying, and there was nothing to explore. It literally became nothing but a giant hub world, just like TP, only worse because there was nothing to do but fly. (Which was admitedly fun, but not enough on it's own) Skyward Sword's design was a reaction to Aonuma's displeasure with TP's emptiness. As much as the sky was barren and boring, once you landed, the three main areas were just as dense with content as any 2D Zelda game. More so than any 3D Zelda before it, including Wind Waker. (though the stamina bar for running can go die a firey death)

You mention that many of the games I mentioned starring Young Link happen to feature tightly integrated worlds where nary a metre is wasted. You also mention that every single game you're talking about are top-down 2D games. That's a huge point. It's not straining on the hardware to make a world like that on a game like that. It was impossible, however, to replicate the same design phylosophy in a 3D game, as a game of that same scale and density is vastly more damanding and frankly impossible to replicate on the hardware they were working with.

Now, will this impossibiliy continue to be an issue on the Wii U? Who knows. The more demanding the graphics are on the hardware, the more consessions will have to be made to supplement them. Having the last two games that Aonuma worked on being Wind Waker HD and ALBW make me far more confident, however. Aonuma has gone on record stating the effects that the open worlds found in those games (he specifically mentions ALBW, which is great) will have on the openess of Zelda U. He's also said other things that point to good signs, such as an interview with IGN's Jose Otero where he made it a point to mention that while he want's the game to be open world, "open world" doesn't nessesarily mean wide, open, empty areas. This game is likely shooting for a mix between the world density of Skyward Sword with the open,  vast seamlessness found in Wind Waker to make an end product that ends up being the 3D representation of ALBW.

As for your last point about the hours of exposition before the game starts, that's only really an issue in the Wii games. It's a little bit of a wait in OoT, but you get started in like 30 minutes. In MM, again, you start almost immediately. Maybe 10-20 minutes. Again, this is mostly because if it's status as a direct sequel to the first truely open world 3D console game of all time. It didn't need the exposition. Wind Waker, again, gets you started in 15-25 minutes.

Then comes the Wii twins. At least two hours for both, because "mature, hardcore" fans wanted a "deeper" story. Also because the control scheme was completely new and they needed to dedicate time to teaching them. Aonuma has made it a point to say that he wanted make ALBW quick to start so that fans could start the playing the game right away. 10-20 minutes.

And they all have cutscenes. I don't mind cutscenes that expand a deeper plot, as long as it isn't front loaded. Let me play the game for a bit before bombarding me with exposition. That's something Aonuma has stated would be worked into the design of Zelda U. That's why he added the Hint Glasses. He wanted hints and tutorials to be an optional thing, so it doesn't unessesarily clog the gameplay up for seasoned veterans who don't need it.

Link appearing older in the Wii games signifies a change in direction that I don't like. He was trying to appeal to an audience that quite frankly knows nothing about what makes a great Zelda game. He didn't make Link older because "it fit the game," he made Link older because the fans liked that in OoT. I loved OoT's older Link because it was novel. That's why I never compare OoT's older Link to TP's or SS's. They have completely different reasons for existing. The whole Link and Zelda love plot was nothing but fanservice. Adult Link in TP and SS is nothing but fanservice. Adult Link in OoT was a game mechanic. It's the same way Link turning flat in ALBW is or Link shrinking in Minish Cap is.

That's why, even more than people wanting another purposeless "adult Link," it makes me want to swallow blades when someone is moronic enough to say they want another game with both Links. Because it's those people who don't understand why that was special when it first happened in OoT and why it's a cop out that they keep falling back on this new idea of an older Link now. They want older Link because it's "cool," and Zelda is not "cool." ALttP is not "cool." Link isn't supposed to be "badass," he's supposed to be brave and at odds, which is why being a child fits him so perfectly. A muscular, fit young man in his prime doesn't need to be brave. A young and inexperienced boy, with more obstacles than he has goals, does. That's why Link is better off as a young boy and that's why the most modern games have, not gone to shit but, fallen from grace. Their greatness has become marred by mediocrity, and worse, by a lack of originality.

There's no reason why a more compact world cannot be made in 3D. Especially when working with a hardware system that can load assets efficiently, as the GC's mini-discs were designed to do. Wind Waker was a ballsy examply of artstyle and draw distance, but it also appeared to be an example of an extremely rigid design which added (finding treasure was fun, also WHAT IS IN THIS QUADRANT) and detracted (OH JEEZIS, more sailing, where's Kepora Gebora when you need him) from the formula.

Finding rupees in land-based games was handled well enough by slashing grass or finding grottos. Such things in WW required extra messing about with sea charts, pulling out the Wind Waker itself to change wind direction, and fending off some (admittedly bonus-inducing) distractions on the way to an islet that may have what you want. I appreciate both WW and MM for doing something different with the template, even though neither really seem to have succeeded. MM contridicts what you wrote above about weak hardware being unable to provide a compact and cohesive 3D Zelda world, and I believe that the reception to it is why the world design principles have not been replicated as well in subsequent console games. The time-based quests are an argument for another day though (It's a shame that the game didn't really open up until getting the Bomber's notebook).

I understand that Hyrule field was a "Wow" thing to show what is possible, once you fled the restrictions of Kokiri Forest, the vastness of everything must have been pretty impressive. But even then, there wasn't really anything to do except avoid peahats and leevers (or stalfos at night-time). If you were lucky, you got to chase the postman. TP made everything bigger, but even with such distractions as catching golden bugs, finding hidden caves / grottos, moving owl statues for orange rupees you don't need, it still seems as though it's only so vast for the sole reason of making a gamer think "my goodness, that is VAST". I would really enjoy a world that was smaller, perhaps one that required me to defeat a sort of "mid-boss" to skip a big part of the map, but maybe not all such as scaling with proficiency. New players will get knocked back, but brave heroes can be rewarded with early secrets. The reason for not scaling this enemies' skill would greatly reduce player ennui when taking this shortcut in future; maybe the path becomes more fluid as the player progresses. Perhaps there could even be a nice "easter egg" where this midboss finally realises that after being repeatedly beaned by Link, he's going to retire and pay more attention to his family. And here is a Piece of Heart for the epiphany.

Furthermore, regarding Majora's Mask. I am interested in a layman's explanation as to why a tightly-integrated world, nay, a PARALLEL world is not possible. Consider that you mentioned how the Great Sea is a demonstration of seamless loading, and you should get the idea that Nintendo enjoys overcoming technical challenges transparently. Skyward Sword really surprised me by having dugeons which were much smaller than I expected, but required so much  more thinking and spatial skills to the point where I was still really engrossed. The whole "underworld" of Skyward Sword was really excellent like that, and I just wish that the sky was a bit better integrated with it. Perhaps the whole disconnect between the two was a hardware limitation as you suggested, but I fear that Aonuma is getting further away from perfecting things in order to be a show-off.

Basically, I don't really care how old my link is. I just want a rich, compact experience, where I don't feel disapointed that the promises that made me excited for a thing turned out to be disappointing. I'm gonna pull my pants down right here and say that Skyward Sword is actually pretty fucking good. It's not grimdark, and again, Link's age means about as much as the story, because by now I understand that it's just a legend passed down through time, and as such embellished and edited. It's just that Skyward Sword was a much too ambitious attempt to combine Wind Waker and Twilight Princess together. Aonuma should really do what proper Zelda fans do on a regular basis: play all the games all over again. I'll be doing this myself, soon.

As I said, there was a reason 3D Zelda couldn't have a large and dense world; limited hardware. And as I said, MM could only do what it did because it was a smaller sequel to an already huge game. If Ocarina of Time, or any original Zelda was stuctured like that, people would have been pissed. Heck, people where already pissed with MM. I never grew tired of the sailing. There were flaws to Wind Waker, but most of them were design choices due to limited hardware, like the slow sailing speed because if it was faster, the areas wouldn't have loaded fase enough. Both Wind Waker and MM absolutely succeeded with their design choice. It literally couldn't be done any more flawlessly, given the hardware constraints. The time based quests where a brilliant way to make the limited area more alive; it did Watch_Dogs before Watch_Dogs did Watch_Dogs.

Like I said, Aonuma isn't being a show off, he's pandering fanservice. It's not for him, it's for "us." Skyward Sword is a perfect examply of why a tightly integrated world wasn't possible. The areas where tightly packed, but because of hardware constraints, there where only three of them, and they where emersion-breakingly devided. The only way it could be done was with the introduction of the sky, which gave the game time to load the other areas. Not why the sky itself was boring is completely Aonuma's fault, but before the Wii U, the world had to be small, devided, and dense, or large, open, and barren. There wasn't an option for a large and dense world unless it went through short cuts like WW where the world was more dense and still open than most 3D Zelda's, but nothing when compared to the density of SS and MM.

Like I said, his resent comments and work with ALBW prove that he's getting all the closer to perfecting things. I loved Skyward Sword. I also loved Twilight Princess, but there flaws run deeper than any other Zelda game. They both game exposition priority over gameplay more than any other Zelda. They both were hand holdy. They both overdid it with the tutorials. Skyward Sword destroyed free exploration in favor of linearity. Twilight Princess was a checklist of how not to offend the "hardcore" retards. It was unoriginal.  And worst of all, both tried to outshine OoT instead of trying to be good games on their own merits. They were concieted games, and they didn't deserve to be. OoT, MM, WW, and now ALBW were all modest games, when they didn't need to be. They just wanted to be fun.

I feel like Zelda U will just strive to be fun, too. SS and TP were weaker because of Aonuma's insecureties of fan expectations, not because he thinks he's a gift from god. The games were cocky and the "fans" were cocky, not him.