| Rafux said: Black (and white) canvas have been released as paintings, blank tracks have been released as music (Danzig, HIDE), dance styles with no movement (Butoh) they are still art. Anyway I rest my case since in the history of video games there will never be a game wihout challenge and fun at its base. I can't spend the rest of my life explaining it to someone that will never admit that is wrong.
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Except for the fact that you totally missed the point. The fact that those things exist does not change my point at all. I was totally aware they existed, too. HOWEVER, it seems like you're the one who fails to comprehend the fact that ART needs a MEDIUM. VIDEO GAMES are a MEDIUM. ALL MEDIUMS have LIMITATIONS. THEREFORE, calling a painting that is a BLANK CANVAS, or calling a song with no sound MUSIC doesn't actually make sense. BY DEFINITION, a PAINTING needs PAINT, and by definition MUSIC needs actual SOUNDS to perceive. DANCING also needs MOVEMENT to be a DANCE. The LACK of it pretty much means that the "ART" is overtaking these definitions for those examples as well. The very same can be done with video games. How do you not see this?
Also, like nomad has said, challenge and fun are relative. Subjective. And like I have been saying over and over again, but you keep ignoring is that CHALLENGE is being very loosely defined with you. Anything that requires ANY interaction can be defined as a "challenge." A game like Kirby's Epic Yarn is not CHALLENGING, but presents a CHALLENGE. A game like a Visual Novel that mostly relies on making choices at key moments are not CHALLENGING, but it is a CHALLENGE in order to determine what choice you would like to go with. These are games, and to say otherwise would mean you forfeit your entire argument that any of the things you mentioned are valid points.
And these forms of art are all new forms of art. To assume it would never happen with video games (in fact, it may have already been done... perhaps similar to the 'press spacebar to win' game) is ridiculous. If you look at art's history, you'll see that there will be very few examples of what you're talking about besides what's happened within our life times.
