padib said:
Farmageddon said:
padib said:
After bold. (I read some before the bold but the after bold part is what I find interesting I can better contribute to)
The logic goes something like this: assuming the universe is by design (which it is but that's another story), if the universe was meant for human existence (which it also is, but whatevs), then we should find in the universe hints of design suited for human's survival, or that the sustenance of human existence hinges on very precise calibration of the human's environment parameters and that would be solid evidence for the idea.
If those are not found, then it should be evidence against the universe being designed to nurture human existence, and thus being designed for humanity.
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Ok, but the thing is that if you don't presuppose humans to be special than the idea of a fine-tuned world loses meaning if other kinds of life-forms could have surfaced instead given different conditions. The other explanation, though, that humans just happen to be what came to thrive under these conditions, and are thus molded by these very conditions, remains very much plausible.
So for this kind of argument to work you have start out by supposing "humans are special". By doing so the conclusion you reach is "the world is fine-tuned for humans", and then one might try to say, from this, that the universe was thus designed to nurture us, since there's this fine-tuning. But this is the same as saying "if humans are special than humans are special".
The bolded part though shows all that could actually try to be inferred about from this: consistency (or negation). As in, supposing it's right won't bring about a logical contradiction or contradiction with the evidence on this given aspect. It could never, however, in any way, be used to try and prove that intelligent design is right, which is what he initially implied (or at least I understood it this way), because the argument would essentially end up begging the question.
Do notice taht saying "humans are not special thus there's no fine-tuning" faces the same adversity. So, focusing only on this very specific arguemnt, both remain equally sound but unprovable. But so is also the case with the idea that the world is fine0tuned for ants or bacteria or whatever. Faced with both possibilities the simpler one seems to me to be the one that involves less "special cases", ie, the one that says the existing species are just a product of their enviroment's condition, and thus "fine-tuned" to it.
As a side note, one might argue the world is not quite as perfect for us as it might be.
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I am making an effort to understand, after reading your post a few times, because I'm not a professional in proof and logic.
@underlined. Given the conditions being what they are and not different, then it's more safe to assume that it was indeed fine-tuned for the living organisms we see today. Otherwise, it would be like saying, in a crime scene, that the killer could have used a knife instead of a gun if in other conditions he could only find a knife. If he used a gun, then he didn't use a knife. The fact that he may have used a knife doesn't change the fact that he used a gun. So the conditions in the universe may have been different, but what we are certain of is that they are not different, they are what they are and that's the bottom line. That's what we go by, the actual state of the universe, not what could have been.
@italics. The idea is not to prove than humans are special, but when the parameters required for human existence are very precise it's enough to wonder if it was designed that way. There's not more to this. It becomes an even more nagging question if you see no truth to evolution and naturalistic explanations to life.
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On Earth the conditions are what they are, and we are well adapted to living and surviving in those conditions. It doesn't mean that life couldn't be created under different conditions. Some life on another planet that is molecularly different from ours could also be thinking how lucky they are the universe was created just right for them.
There are an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in our known universe. The possibilities are endless.
Personally I am somewhat spiritual despite not being a strong follower of religion. The reason is that existence is illogical, so logically I think there are super natural forces that we can not comprehend. We could all be in The Matrix for all we know 
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However reality seems too complex to be just a simulation designed for humans. For example we see RGB color, but there is no such thing as RGB color in nature, there are only photons of different wavelengths. Color wasn't designed for our eyes. Our eyes adapted a way to map a small part of the light spectrum as RGB color. Other animals adapted to map light spectrum in different ways from humans.
