ToraTiger said:
Michael-5 said:
Sorry for the late response. I got banned because I called Mugen a dick when he was acting like a dick. Worth it, but he's still being super arrogent and annoying, and wanting to butt rape me or something... lol
Coincidence - I dunno, I'm dating a Korean girl who moved from Korea in.... 2002. Oh well, yea, that's pre 2005. I know they use English in a lot of Korean songs, but most younger Korean people know english fairly well. It's not the official second language in Korea or Japan, but (especially in Japan) because a lot of media/products get exported (e.g. anime, games, etc) a little bit of English is often thrown into songs, and sometimes the primary title of a product is in english.
I don't think Korean/Japanese Pop stars dress anything at all like American/European Pop Stars. Nooo way. I also don't see too much of a resemblance in music. You don't see people who dress like Niki Menage or Christina Agulara (I know I spelt them wrong) in Asia.
Food - Asian food in USA is salty and full of carbs, but real oriental food is very different. This is the same as pizza in USA and Itally. American corporations add tons of salt to food to encourage drink sales because drinks are where most companies make a profit.
It's really difficult to find a true Korean/Japanese restaurant in USA/Canada. I live in Toronto, and I only know of 1 truely authentic Japanese restaurant (Guu), and 2 authentic Korean restaurants (Local). Most have horribly altered, westernized menus. Did you know that Chow Mein was invented by a Chinese American and is not actually a chinese dish, but an American one?
In Japan and Korea, there are very very few western chains. Did you know that Wal-Mart pulled out of South Korea because of a lack of sales? McDonalds survived, but even then it's really really uncommon in Korea, and fairly uncommon in Japan. Plus in Korea and Japan, the menu is heavily Easternized (They have a shrimp burger!).
As for Asians being short, if their food was malnourishing them, they wouldn't be skinny, and their average life expectancy wouldn't be higher then that of a European/American, but it is.
Plastic Surgery - Are V-Jaw's Caucasian Traits? My girlfriend and a lot of other asian girls I know have V-Jaws and they didn't have surgery. I actually think in general asian people (excluding chinese) more often tend to have oval shaped heads. I think the ethnicity which specifically doesn't have V-Jaws are Native Americans/Asians, and Central/South Americans.
Also what do you mean by western noses? I'm Eastern European, and all of us have gigantic noses, and I don't think it's considered beautiful. Most people I know usually make fun of people with big noses, and I believe in Eastern and Northern European people, nose reduction surgery is common. Can we argue that more asians get nose surgery then caucasians? I dunno, I didn't know that was a common asian surgery until now
As for the Jersey Shore look, while you and I might think it's dumb......I think there are a lot of....I'm going to go with inbred (I know they aren't, but it feels right), Americans/Canadians who think orange skin and fake boobs are hot. Sadly I think the fraction of people who find this hot is a high one here in North America.
Hair - I wouldn't say that Asians dying their hair brown mimics caucasians. When asian people get exposed to lots of sunlight, their hair turns brown (in the same way most caucasians hair will turn more blonde). I think, judging from the people I know, that that brown is to immitate a look which shows that. As for straightening/curling (perms are common in Asia) hair, I think it is an influence of the others culture, but it's equal in both directions.
As for Blond hair....you're spot on, I wikipedia's it. However Native Australians have the highest frequency of blonde hair, with a rate greater then 90%. When you think about it, a lot of Australians are Blonde. So......this just proves, we're trying to be Aussies?
Obesity What you described seems cultural. If you're so busy that you only have time for fast food, or your culture encourages over-eating and large portion meals, I think those are cultural factors, not social. Japanese people, and German people are known to be hard workers, and they don't encounter obesity problems in anywhere nearly as high numbers. So why do Americans have 10x more obese people then Japan/S.Korea and 3x as many as Germany? It's because fast food chains in the USA are really messed up, they add tons of salt to make you thirsty, and tons of sugar/fat because it's cheaper to produce. Fast Food places in Europe and Asia are typically a lot healthier, and the standards are much higher. It's culturally acceptable to eat crap in USA and arguably Canada/UK/Australia too, but in mainland Europe and Developed Asia, those standards are different.
Factoid. McDonalds used to make burgers from "100% Beef" correct? 100% Beef is the company name, the beef content in their burgers is about 20%. The rest is corn starch and high fructose corn syrup (basically sugar, which gets converted into fat).
Influence - Apple gets sued by Samsung just as often as the other way around. Also, while tablets were popularized by Americans, cell phones were popularized by the Japanese. Which is bigger?
1. I agree
2. I disagree. While Americans invented cell phones, the Japanese were the first to create an automated cellunar network, and it was only until. Also the evolution of cell phones has roots in all parts of the world. Americans made the 1G network, Europeans the 2G and 4G, and Japanese the 3G. Also while American pioneered cell phone technology, Nokia and Samsung took over the market. Apple is 3rd. Also Europeans created the first tablets, not Apple. - I had to look most of this stuff up, good debate.
3. I can agree with you here, but only because I dunno. J/K-Pop seems very different then A-Pop, but A-Pop did come first (I think)
4. There are 200 McDonalds Diners in a country with a population of 50 million? That's 4 restaurants per 1 million people. The population of Manhattan is 1.6 million people, with that McDonalds distribution, that would be about 6 McDonalds restaurants in the entire city....it's not that wide spread.
As for Asian food in North America, it depends where you live. In Toronto, Vancouver, Los Angeles, and Manhattan, there are more "asian" restaurants then anything else. However I bet in Dallas, Denver, and Los Vegas, that's probably not the case. Still most city's have a "China Town", but in Korea they do not have a "little USA."
Last point, most of the things you named which are "American" aren't. Blondes are most commonly Australian, Brown Hair is not done to immitate Caucasians, Cell Phones boomed because of the Europeans/Japanese (while invented by the Americans), Tablets were invented by Europeans, and aren't that popular in asian, Caucasians probably do more nose reduction surgery's then Asians do the opposite, there are more asian places in North America then there are American places in Asia, American culture isn't followed outside the USA much (people don't eat as much as Americans, and the Jersey Shore/Nikki Menage look isn't really seen outside the USA).
Also, one thing to add, tablets are only mosreatly popular in asian (it's not like here), but Nintendo dominates with it's handhelds everywhere, and Samsung is the largest cell phone company now, followed by Nokia. America's influence doesn't extend as far outside USA as you might think.
Also, since were talking about products, what's the best selling car of all time and largest car manufacturer? Toyota Corolla and Toyota, Japanese, thank you (and again Europeans invented the car). Who makes most TV? Samsung, and the make TV's for many other companies like Sony and Toshiba. Product wise, I think Americans are imitating the Japanese more then vice versa (cars are looking more Asian nowdays).
This is getting quite expansive..
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Lol I didn't know you could get banned on here for calling someone a name. I had to have said that several times lol. Well, back on topic, I understand that a lot of things get imported so that requires a certain level of delicacy to insure that the product is met with the same impact as its original. But that being said, a lot is also imported from Asia, like China. Most everything is made in China and a lot of electronics are made and produced in Japan and Korea.
Most Electronics are made at Foxconn, in China.
On the fashion, if you look at the boy bands, they all wear hoodies, street shoes, jump-suits (That's popular here?), sunglasses, ect. Like you said, not all of the female idols dress too much like Americans, but you'd still see someone wearing a overly eccentric dress like Katy Perry(Katy Perry dresses over eccentrically to emphasis her sex appeal, like with giant nipples, most asians don't do that), or something completely obscure like Lady Gaga. I've stated this in my previous posts' because I read somewhere that American fashion lines are booming in South East Asia and I'm sure most Americans don't even know what Asian fashion looks like aside from Yukatas and Kimonos.
Maybe, but i dunno. I don't know how many asians wear hoodies, and I don't think you can classify sunglasses as American. I bet they are European again.
A good amount of Koreans may know English, but I highly doubt most people there, even younger ones knows the meanings to all the english words that are used in the songs. Even if that were the case, alot of Koreans know Japanese and vise versa, Nope, this isn't true, that's like saying a lot of Mandarin Chinese know Cantonese, or that a lot of Russians know Ukrainian, or that a lot of English people know Frech, not true. but neither really borrow those words to use in their songs. That's like saying, just because alot of Americans know Spanish, then you'll automatically see Spanish references in its media. If the music doesn't sound similar to you, look at these. And these are some of the most popular artists in Korea, btw (G.Dragon, SNSD, B2ST, ect.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6b6dtwJI8I (20 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSIS_syd69s (1 minute.)
Okay.....with those music videos, I didn't realize how similar K-Pop was to American. Then I agree with you, Asian music is heavily influenced by Americans, but in the interest of fairness there is still a lot of original K/J-Pop, and some songs (like Gangnan Style) do sound uniquely Korean (ignoring the fact that the song is in Korean).
On the food, dude I don't know. I've been to Indonesia once before, and I'd say that stuff was worse for you than fast-food. Indonesia is not Japan/Korea, and the food in places like Vietnam, Thailand, Philippenes and Indonesia is very different from the food in Korea and Japan. The reason they weren't blobs there with the stuff they were eating was because they probably eat about half as much as most Americans. I know that's not Korea, but it's still technically Asia. I do agree that the food is extra unhealthy in USA, because..well Americans love unhealthy food. Though I still don't think it's healthy even in Asia. Rice is super popular there, and that stuff is full with carbs. It's just not as fattening, and that's what most American's worry about. Any organic diet would be better suited for someone trying to be healthy. There is a massive market for McDonalds in Japan and Japan's a small Island. It's not exactly as popular in Korea, though it is definitely rising. Check out this article. http://briandeutsch.blogspot.com/2011/01/mcdonalds-korea-to-double-number-of.html
It's not that Americans like to eat unhealthy, they like to eat cheap, and mega corporations takes advantage of that. I'm pretty sure Americans don't want salt added to pop to make them thirsty. Yes asians like rice, but you do realize that nearly 50% of your intake is suppose to be carbs? In Korea and Japan they almost exclusively eat rice, but in North America people eat a lot of bread and pasta too, wheat/gluton based carbs, which not everyone can digest.
Also P.S. Organic isn't actually healthier for you, just more expensive. What's good for you are veggies, add more veggies to your diet and you will garentee loose weight. A friend of mine used to be 300 Plus lb, went on a veggie only diet and lost 90lb in just over 3/4 months. He's still 210, but he's also 6'2, so he isn't too large.
As for McD's in Korea, well I'll be, it's growing, but it's not growing that much (243 stores over 50 million is like 7 stores in a city as large as Manhatten, or 8 in Toronto). In Large, Coastal US cities, Asian restaurants are growing much more quickly.
And Wal-Mart isn't really a heavy hitter in metropolitan areas, so I wouldn't expect it to be a success in places like Korea or Japan. I dunno, it's doing fine in major cities in USA and Canada.
As for them being stunted by their diets, I think that's true. It's not exactly them being malnourished. Look, people need HGH to grow, either muscles or bone density. When you eat a lot of carbohydrates it inhibits your body's ability to secrete HGH. HGH also causes stress on the body (Growing pains ect) Also, There diets don't have as much fat in it, so I guess they substitute carbs for fat when it comes to energy. As for them living longer, that could be exercise, (a lot of Japaneses ride there bikes to places instead of bus) they don't eat as unhealthy, so they don't develop ailments like diabetes or increased-cholesterol or hypertension. Also, just to add, Asians have been known to grow a lot taller when they come to the west. Maybe fatter, but also taller.
Actually I was thinking, most asians aren't that short you know. The average height of a Korean person is like 5'8/5'9. Yao Ming is 7'6 and he is from Northern China (where Chinese people are actually really tall). It's only in Japan where people are short and southern asia (Thailand, South China, etc). So I don't think their diet makes them short.
Also asians don't exercise as much as Americans. I said this before but the muscular appearance on asian women is specifically seen as unattractive. Asian girls go out of their way not to be too muscular. However I agree with you about Diabetes and heart problems, there is almost no fat in asian diets so they don't die from issues like this.
And yes, I guess obesity could also be a cultural problem, since america also has free food basically for anyone under 18. And their eatery like Micky Ds and there conpatriant don't offer a lot of healthy choices for cheap. Though I think over-eating or depression is a problem with the society. Surgery. This is the article I used in the opening of this Thread. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/19/korea.beauty/index.html Well, maybe V-jaws aren't exactly a complete rarity in Asia, but it is far more common in most other places. As for the nose thing, Asian's usually have low noses with open nostrils. White people have longer noses but their nostrils aren't usually as open. So when Asians change their noses through surgery they lengthen it, and close the nostrils a bit. It's not as popular as the double eye-lids but it's still common.
I agree with you about Double Eye-Lid Surgery.. However this is a minor surgeries, it's nowhere nearly the same as breast implants or calf implants, or botox injections which can all leak. I agree with you in the sense that asians will do minor plastic surgery to look more American, but the impression I had from your article is that they are plastic surgery obsessed and it's not true.
As for Nose surgery, I don't think people (asian, eastern european, etc) do it to look more caucasian particularly. They do it to look more average. I took a psychology course once and it argued that people are attracted to a more average look. If you average two faces together the resulting face will look a lot better then the two or more contributing faces (usually). So I would argue that this type of surgury is common in all cultures, and it's done to look more average, not caucasian specifically.
Yeah, there's definitetly a following for the Jersey Look, but I think most people think it's ridiculous. Also, this shouldn't even be considered a majority, isn't us hating it enough of a reason for it to never be the majority? I mean, if I were in Korea right now I'd probably think surgery on girls is so hot. Not for my own measure, just because what society would have fed me. Hair. I'm aware that sunlight can bleach hair, but I don't think it can bleach it that light. But Asians in Korea don't usually have light brown hair when they die it. It's usually dark brown. For the same reason caucasian people have trouble dying their hair white, asians have 2x as much trouble lightening their hair. I have black hair, and am in the hot sun a lot but my hair never got to the point where it was as light as the Koreans I know. I think bleach brown is really to light to be considered brown. And if this were the case, I would assume that all Asians have brown hair like the Koreans, but that isn't the case. It just seems so natural there. When you see ⅝ of your idols with that hair color, it would make many people want to dye it the same. I'm not exactly saying all of them are doing it to mimick whites, I was just pointing out that a massive percent of them have that color.
I think you and I have a different impression as to how brown asians hair tends to be. I think it's darker, almost black, you think it's lighter, almost beach brown.
I don't think straightening/curling is an influence most of the time. Seeing as some women curl their hair to make it easier to manage or straighten it sometimes just to try it. This just seems too natural to me to be considered a influence. LOL at the Austrailians having that much blonde hair. The thing is, in America, beauty is far more subjective than it is in Asia. In America, you'll see actresses that all look different that are considered beautiful in there own way. Megan Fox (Cat Eye Surgery), Taylor Swift (Oval Russian eyes), Jessica Alba, Angolena Jolie ect. While in Korea, their definition of beauty seems very definitive. You'll see a group of Korean girls, and about half of them have the exact same style. Same hair, eyes ect. Which makes me think they're trying to look like something. Influence.
I think a lot of this is our impression of Korea/Japan without going there. When my girlfriend came to Canada she thought we all drove large, flat, american sedans (like maybe in the 60's), but she was surprised to see so many of us drive asian cars. I think you and I are under the same influence, and if we go to Korea/Japan, we will be surprised to see how different it is from what we think.
Apple is only sued by Samsung in Korea, where Samsung has a larger presence and it's easier for them to take legal matters. Apple on the other hand has sued Samsung three times, twice in America and once in Europe.
Actually...they have sued each other plenty more times, and Samsung has sued Apple a lot more then you thing. Apple also sued Samsun in Japan, but lost there.
I wasn't trying to be bleak in that post, I could have added a lot of other things, like how Koreans use Youtube to upload there videos, (Like Gagnam style) USA websites are very popular in Korea, e.g Facebook, Twitter, ect, more than there own sites and how they seem to enjoy MMOs a lot. Hell, I could've said they love computers and the internet in general, but I don't think that is fair to the premise of this debate. I Said smartphones, something that was solely popularized by the Iphone, but now is being dominated by Samsung.
I think it would be hard to make a case either way. Americans are known to invent a lot of technologies, and in the case of Facebook and Youtube, or even google, forms of social media. However, when you look at something like say video games, there were very distinct differences between American and Japanese games, and it's hard to argue which has a bigger influence. Final Fantasy is huge in USA, and many JRPG's sell better here then in Japan, but on the same note Starcraft 2 is mega big in Korea. Then again so is Pro Evolution Soccer, and that's European.
2. As for the cellphone thing, this kinda helps my argument in a way. Seeing as all these things were made in America Good inventors) and have become more popular in other parts of the world and other countries are now the top producers of these such products. Though I disagree on Japanese popularizing cellphones. This isn't the same case as with Video games, Americans already had a growing market in celluar tech before it even reached there. So yeah I agree that Asia has helped popularize and even make the best types of these products.
Can we argue that the inventors are the people who stylized the products? If that's the case, most things were invented by the Europeans (except for post WWII, where USA has really risen). If we argued like this then we would have to say that were all heavily influenced by the Europeans because we live in heated houses, drive cars, and sleep in beds.
3. Jpop, is different, but Kpop is pretty similar. Look at the links I added above. 4. While 200 doesn't seem like a lot, Korea is a country smaller than Tennessee that is very over-crowded. and I think that is a good amount for one brand. I don't deny that Chinese food is in full boom, but where I live (Mississippi), I've never seen a Japanese or Korean restaurant, I've been to New York before, and I didn't see any there either.
I haven't been to Manhattan in a while, but In Toronto, Los Angeles and Vancouver, there are more Asian Restaurants then anything else. Heck if I name the 10 closest food restaurants near me it's either Tim Hortins (Huge chain in Canada, Coffee/sandwich joint) or asian.
It also depends on the size of these stores. You know there are more Subway Sandwich retailers in the world then there are McDonalds? However McDonalds is still a much much bigger company because Subway retailers are much much smaller then McDonalds.
5. Your argument for the last thing really helps my case I think. You see Nintendo dominates everywhere and is the number-one video game maker, followed by Sony, something that was invented in America. I want to point out one thing, that Nintendo's mascot, Mario was influenced by American Cartoons, same for Sonic.
Again, can we give the country of origin credit for the stylization of the product? Do 1960's Muscle cars scream European to you? Same with my arguements about asian/american influence.
The only thing I can entirely agree with you on is the food thing. And honestly, I don't see how it's not as big as I think when McDonald is still the most popular food chain. Hell, there's like 2,000 of those things in Japan. Samsung and Sony are the number one electronic makers, but most of the stuff they make aren't originals and they usually originated in America. Asia may make the products, which I think has more to do with economy. Asians will sell cars for a hell of a lot less, because the cost of labor in places like china, is extremely low.
Eh, not true! The Japanese have higher building standards then American on Cars, and in places like USA imported cars are heavily taxed. Usually Japanese cars cost significantly more then their American counter parts. Toyota Camry's cost a lot more the Chevrolet Malibu's, Honda Civics/Fits cost a lot more then Chevy Cruze's and Aveo's.
Also you act as if the tanned look is the majority. It isn't.
I know, but I also argued that we might have an exaggerated view of Korea/Japan. Like I said my gf thought we all drove large sedans like we did in the 60's. Heck I bet you think Cubans still drive cars like that don't you? My friends went to Cuba and said there were a lot of European cars there (like SEAT).
Finally, I'm gonna point out that a lot of things that even Asians made or 'invented' was by inspiration from an existing American idea. Anime was influenced off cartoons and the original creator said he wanted to make the characters eyes big like westerners. This is a bit of a disputable quote so I'll leave that at that. America's influence is still the biggest in the world.
All Americans think this, but I disagree. When you leave the USA, even to just Canada, people really don't try to be more American. Yes Americans invented a lot of stuff recently, but they didn't stylize it. Yes Anime might have originally been based on American cartoons, but look at it now, it is anything but American. Yes cars were invented by Europeaners, but there are huge differences between Asian, American, and European cars. (e.g. Americans - Big and cheap, European - stylish like Ferarri, or refined like German cars, but generally small, Japanese - Reliable, small, and usually techy)
And I think it'll take a while before it becomes second. Especially in terms of entertainment. e.g, Movies, Singers, characters (Look at Mickey Mouse's fame in Asia) not so much in Video games, but that varies a lot depending on the country. This is completely understandable for someplace like South Korea, where as that Republic was founded by partial American Ideals and a lot of US army men lived and still do live there. But not somewhere like Europe or Japan. I can't understand that. Yeah, I know, I wish I could write something this long as a school project but that isn't the case...
I do agree with you about K-Pop now, but in general, I don't think Americans have as strong of an influence outside USA as Americans think. Apple is big...in the USA, not WW, that's why Samsung and Nokia are much bigger company's. I mean, are BlackBerry's (Canadian) big in USA? I bet not, but in Canada every other person has one. Domestic products and influences will always be strong in that country, but outside the country it's not always the case. In general, I think the Japanese are pretty original in their style, but some things are influenced by Americans (double eye lid surgery, K-Pop, etc)
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