Evidence for the existence of God

[Final-Fan]

Grey Acumen said:

Final-Fan said:
What you fail to grasp, Grey Acumen, is that for your God there can be no probablities, only absolute knowledge. If God looked at something and said, "hmm, there's a 64% chance of this happening and 36% chance that it won't and I don't know which way it will go beforehand" then he is not all-knowing. Therefore he knows everything in advance including having known everybody's sins before creating the Universe in such a way that those sins would happen.

Therefore all sin is his fault, QED.

Why can't there be probabilities? If I know every possible event that can take place and all variances, then i know all. I can put plans in motion ahead of time when I see that certain events have the possibility of taking place. If I see the universe heading down paths that can lead to X happening, Y happening, or Z happening, then since i'm all powerful, I can have things set up ahead of time with safety catches to put the universe back on a reasonable track.

Haven't you ever written a program with error catching? java or C++ try catch and throw. I'm all knowing, so I can write it into the code to have safety catches for every possible contingency while still allowing the program to throw whatever random numbers it wants.

Also, what the heck is the point of "therefor all sin is his fault, QED"? Are you saying that God can't exist because bad things happen on earth? Helloooo, this is earth, we have to die before we have a shot at heaven.

In addition to CrashMan's excellent post, you AGAIN show a complete failure of reading comprehension.  I never said that God didn't exist, I said that if he is all-knowing and all-powerful and created the entire universe then he is responsible for all sin.  Maybe that means that YOUR conception of God would not exist (because you don't think he would do that) but that is not the same as God not existing. 

Did the abbreviation "Q.E.D." break your mind or something?  It only means quod erat demonstrandum -- "which was to be demonstrated" i.e. "I am done with my argument because I've achieved my goal". 

Grey Acumen said:

CrashMan said:

^ So you are saying that if you know the chances of all possible outcomes, but not which will be the actual outcome, you know everything?

That is obviously wrong.

That's like saying "I go up to a roulette table. I know if I bet my money on X I know the chances of each of the possible outcomes (the odds) and what will happen to my money with each one of those outcomes (the payoffs) Therefore I know exactly what the ball will land on.

Not to mention in your example above, god couldn't SEE that x y or z was happening, as he would have known a billion years prior to those events which would occur, if he was all knowing. Your example in programming is COMPLETELY invalid. The error checking catches for events you DON'T expect, or MIGHT happen but you aren't sure. If you knew everything that would happen, there would be no need for exception handling, because there would be no exceptions to what you know would occur.

See, this is you're problem, you're taking the "not knowing" as something that is random. A ball on a roulett table is too complex for a human to calculate, but it is not random. AS someone who would be all knowing. As soon as the ball started moving I would know exactly where it would go by calculating rotations of the wheel vs the direction the ball is moving.

That part is NOT what I mean when I say possibilities. the only possibiliities that god would not knwo teh outcome of already are those which involve the choice of a human, THOSE are the only points at which probablity comes into play.

And you are both right and wrong about the error checking deal. After all, if you didn't expect it to be able to happen, you would you include exceptions handlers at all?

Either way, the point is still that safety triggers can still be set up ahead of time in order to keep things from going too far off track no matter what random numbers are thrown out(ei. choices made by people with free will)

I would like to remind you of an earlier post in which I stated: 
God knows everything that happens to you, affecting your life and giving you input for your decisions. He knows exactly how you think, so He knows what those decisions will be. He knew the same about your parents, and their parents, etc. etc. back to the beginning of the universe, and His foresight NEVER EVER gets blurry no matter how far into the future you go from the moment of creation because He had perfect control over His actions (so there is no chance that anything happened unintentionally).

God can predict what every single person on the planet will be doing AND THINKING a million years from now, or a billion years from now, more easily than you can predict that a ball you drop on a paved hillside will roll downhill, and He could also see that at the moment of creation. And He did, because God sees everything.
Either God knows what you're going to do, or he doesn't.  If he doesn't know what you're going to do, then his knowledge or ability to predict has limitations.  Therefore not omniscient/omnipotent.  And if he DOES know -- see above posts.