This is why I don't like debating religion

[Runa216]

timmah said:

I agree with some of what you said, especially about Christians trying to shove the 'law' of leviticus on people (or at least the parts they like), even though Jesus taught that the 'law' was actually the problem, and he was the solution.

I respectfully disagree about Science and Creation being mutually exclusive, this is only the case for the most rigid interpratations of the creation narrative. I have a few points you might find interesting, even though I'm sure you'll disagree.

1. Both Creation and Science agree that the universe came from one singularity, you call it the big bang, I simply believe that this 'big bang' came from as source beyond the natural world we can observe and test. The Bible at no time states exactly when the universe was created, as it begins by describing God as 'hovering over the waters' at the beginning of the narrative, meaning that the 'big bang' had already happened (or been caused) at this time.

I cannot find any concrete scientific explaination, based on what is known about Physics, as to how an infinitely dense singularity of matter that had presumably been in an inert state for an infinite period of time, could suddenly explode without outside intervention, this goes against what we know about physics. Namely, looking at black holes, these are so dense that not even light or matter can escape, and there is no way we know of for matter this dense to explode (and we have never witnessed any circumstance where something this dense exploded). The big bang still cannot be adequately and concretely explained by modern science, we simple know it happened because of what we observe now and there are many theories about the how and why - There is no single provable explaination of 'how' and 'why' time and space inexplicably expanded from this singularity. I believe that God is the 'why' in that equation, and I respect that you do not.

2.  The order of creation in the Bible actually lines up very nicely with Science. Light came first, followed by vegitation, then sea creatures, followed by land animals, and last, humans. It also describes a significant series of seismic and volcanic events that produced the land as we know it. This is an uncanny similarity between what we've observed and what was written long before scietific observation even existed.

3. The Bible describes the creation as 'days', but it is also very clear that God does not see time the way we do. In fact, the writer of the creation account states later that to God, 'a day is as 1000 years, and 1000 years as a day', meaning that we don't know if he was describing days or long periods of time. It also never says how old the earth is, how much time progressed after each 'day' before the next one started, etc. Anybody that says the Bible clearly states the earth is only 6,000 years old has not bothered to really read it, as there's simply no such statement or insinuation.

4. If God created the natural systems, then it stands to reason he was smart enough to design species to adapt to their environment. The majority of the evidence we see for evolution shows micro-evolution within species, and I absolutely agree that this happens. I simply do not see any way for evolution to happen between species (macro-evolution), this is largely due to the difference in the number of chromosomes between species. In the field of genetics, science has observed over and over that any change in the number of chromosomes results in retardation or deformation of the resulting offspring, which, due to natural selection, would result in the death of said offspring in most cases. This is one reason I don't believe it would not be possible for primates to evolve into humans, as the difference in the number of chromosomes would make this impossible in my view.

The above statements are not to make you believe that God exists, just to give you my view on why I believe Science does not explicitly contradict my faith... Science is a very valuable endeavor.

Faith is a deeply personal thing, so debates between those who have faith and those who don't are likely to go nowhere. My own experiences have cemented my faith that God exists and can/does work in our lives if we let Him. This will most likely mean little to you, because you have not had these experiences. I wouldn't expect you to suddenly find faith because I tell you of some life altering experience I've had or argue with you in a clear and logical fashion.

It's a shame that so many people of faith damage their own reputation by being rigid, judgemental, and sometimes just plain foolish. It's always interesting to me that the people who hated Jesus the most (and ended up killing Him) were the rigid, judgemental, religious folks.

Why can't more religious people be like you?  if I dealt with people like you in my life, I likely wouldn't hate religion as I do. 

Bravo!