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Slimebeast on 13 May 2012
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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Slimebeast said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Slimebeast said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Well, as I see it that's a very great reason to question the "sense" of Abrahamic religions.

I don't expect all to question their beliefs when reading the OP though, but it's one of the main reasons to why I started doing that 2/3 years ago. Insert science into religion and suddenly  the "sense" starts to decrease, and you'll have to find more illogical/scientifically unproven ways to defend your beliefs (like Sal.Paradise did on the first page of this thread, and thetonestarr a few posts ago).

Why don't you get it? It's not about just religion and sin, it's that all moral choices make no sense, regardless if you're religious or an atheist. Morals cease to exist when you have no free will.

Yes, but that is unrelated to the discussion:

Free will: God is not almighty.

No free will: God is almighty, but sins don't exist. Or sins do exist, but people are born to commit them and to go to hell.

 

This thread is not about questioning the existence of morals.

I know but it should be, you should have incorporated it there, because the (non)sense of Abrahamic religions and sinning gets dwarfed by the fact that morals don't exists.

It's the same. The dilemma and lack of sense is the same!

* The religious walks around and believes his choices in life matter for his own salvation or damnation - when in fact no choices exist because everything is already pre-determined and known by God.

* The atheist (or anybody, really) walks around and believes his choices in life matter and tries to do right instead of wrong with the assumption that his choices and behaviour will be judged by himself and anybody around him - when in fact no choices exist because everything is already pre-determined by the construction of your biological machine and external input.

Both of these persons walk around in an illusion thinking morals exist and that personal choices matter. One with the goal to end up in Heaven, the other with the goal to make his life enjoyable or to make the world a better place - but both walk around in an illusion that makes no sense (the illusion that your choices matter).

You shouldn't only adress the (non-)sense of the former but also the (non-)sense of the latter. Else you are intellectually dishonest.

You make a good point.

The thing is though that when an atheist get the idea that everything is determined, then he won't really change a lot as a person. His opinions will pretty much stay the same. A religious person on the other hand would have to question his entire lifestyle and go: "Hmm... Maybe there is no reason to look down on homosexual people? Maybe circumcision should be up to the child to decide once it grows up, since it doesn't really matter to God anyway? Maybe I shouldn't look down on people who has sex before marriage? Maybe it's okay to file for divorce if the couple is unhappy?" (Those questions obviously differ from person to person.)

After all, the purpose of this thread is to stop unnecessary pain which is caused by unjustified religious rituals, which does not apply to atheists.

That applies to an atheist person just as well, you just haven't thought about all the implications it has to realize that your choices don't matter, that you have no free will.

Do you realize the implications? Don't you see how radically it would change an atheist if he truly started to live as if everything is pre-determined.

You would stop thinking "Dammit, Person X why did you make Y decision", because Person X could only have made that decision and not anything else.

"Maybe I shouldn't condemn that racist, rapist or murderer and make him feel bad, his opinion is just as well based as mine is".

"Wow, maybe I should start questioning my own morals and my own instincts - because there exists no moral choices, no right and wrong! Everything just happens and everything could just happen in one certain way and never end up in any other way, so what does it matter what my opinion is, what my instincts tell me (or whatever it is that pops up in my mind, all these opinions)? Maybe I shouldn't bother with other people's business at all, because what they do, they couldn't have done any other way, and what they will do in the future they wouldn't be able to have done in any other way - and it's all independent of what I do or don't do".

See? See how radical that is?

And impossible. Because no matter what you claim to believe in theory ("I do not believe in free will, I'm just a biological machine") you do not practice that in real life. No one does.