WWII Thread (How come the West never gives the Soviets the credit they deserve)

[mrstickball]

ElChe said:

mrstickball said:

The order actually issued by Stalin was rather different from what you'd imputed him so light-heartedly and brain-washingly. And the measures ordered were temporary.

I never made mention if this was wrong or right. I only was saying that the troops were fighting for Stalin - his wishes that they would die one way or another. 

What you're saying just shows your bias and lack of knowledge. In your books it must be written that Stalin ate 100 million of children alive, we've already heard such stories here.

 

mrstickball said:

1. Thing is, Stalin nearly lost to Hitler. If Hitler was intelligent, and had taken the advice of his leadership, Stalin would have lost during Barbarossa, as Hitler would have made it to the A-A line. Hitler sent a million troops into a tactically unsound city (Stalingrad). Likewise, Stalingrad became a meat grinder which helped turn the tide not due to Stalin's brilliance, but Soviet deserters looking to survive. Hitler made blunder after blunder that no other military leader would have allowed. The only advantage Stalin had was that he began to differ to his generals once he understood that his military strategies were piss-poor.

2. Additionally, there is a difference between offering them death upon retreat, and proper military police. Or do you not know that? Its not like every other army in WW2 had similar problems. The difference was that instead of shooting them, they were jailed. That would have likely been as effective without being as egregious.

3. Again, reality is that almost any Russian leader could have defeated Hitler more easily if they didn't take on the stupid decisions Stalin did. Germany faced an atrocious, unprepared, poorly-armed army. There is a reason the Soviets lost 7 million troops in the war, while every other Western army fared far better - because Stalin and his preparedness was nothing short of inept. Go read up, and I mean really read up on Barbarossa. There is a reason that the Axis powers defeated the Soviets 10:1 in that phase of the war: because Stalin was absolutely stupid. Compare those figures when Gregory Zhukov was given the theater and the ratio plummets to 2:1 or 1:1 even, as during the Battle of Berlin, because Stalin gave power to his generals (quite possibly the only positive thing Stalin did in the war).

1. If Grandma had a balls, it would have been called Grandpa. Nice to know that we should be thankful for Hitler as it was only his stupidity which protected us all back in that time. I see your books also make Battle of Stalingrad an unique case in military history where deserters had achieved victory against enemy regular army. By suprise, this victory came also in the largest battle in history. And of course Stalingrad was unimportant, everyone knew it back then. The books are amazing.

2. Its not like every other army in WW2 had to defend their home country against United Europe and racism for so long. And I already called your words that "any soldier retreating would be shot and killed" a lie, still you repeating it? Repeating lies turns uninformed person into a liar, you know?

3. This would be funny, if you weren't serious. I wish too that getting modern weapons and strong army would take you only a few months, no more. I don't know why you called our army atrocious (because that was Red Army which hurt your eyes just by its name?) but surely civilized, modern, fully ready armies of other European countries had shown stupid Stalin with his atrocious ruskies how to do job properly, right? Oh wait.

And of course there were mistakes, Stalin and everybody else from Stavka were knowing and fully admitting it. But to call them stupid, while almost everything you said is bias/propaganda mix and lack of self-critizism to what you're reading... is stupid, OK? The fact is that USSR were getting ready to defend themselves against United Europe, even infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was to buy some time because it was clear already that "Allies" were more than happy to drive German aggression toward "dirty commies'. Heck, the whole strategic target behind Winter War was to move front away from Leningrad and to secure Karelia before the war is started. The most of legendary designs of soviet tech came from late 30s, T-34 and T-50 included. Evacuation of whole industries from European part of Russia to Ural and deeper into Siberia was put in place according to plans, and resistance in occupied territories were well-organized. And still, some cool boy on some cool board call for stupidity. We may argue that some signs were misinterpreted, big mistakes were made, some things were not done fast enough (though it's unclear how people demand immediate results and blame totalitarian regime at the same time)... but it seems we shouldn't expect anything like this coming from you, as I see it.

1. Who said Stalingrad was unimportant? It was Hitler's main goal for Army Group South - which was their downfall. He wanted to take the namesake town of Stalin for some sort of political victory, ignoring the oilfields east in the Caucus region. Go read up on any historical account of the battle. Hitler paid dearly for throwing nearly a million men at a city with little strategic importance.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._270

Did you not know this order was given, or are you making something else up? If you want to refute Order 270, please give me some sort of information that states that Stalin did not make this order. It states very clearly what was to be done with deserters. Additionally, Order 227 backs up Stalin's line of logic against deserters or those AWOL with harsh penalties including sending them to their deaths as fodder at the most dangerous front lines. Again, how are these lies? Stalin ordered these directives!

3. During operation Barbarossa, the Red Army lost 7 million soldiers. 7 million in six months! How can you not believe that was due to a total failure of leadership and lack of preparation? You can say whatever you want, but history speaks for itself: your country was unprepared for the German offensive, and lost more soldiers in six months than Germany lost in the entire war! Do not get me wrong, the Soviets did some amazing, resourceful things during the war which should be lauded. However, just because some things should be lauded does not excuse very poor decisions which cost millions of people their lives. Soviet designs were very resourceful, and their industrial might was amazing during the war. I love Soviet-designed weapons dearly, I do. But again, that does not take away from the realities of Soviet failures, either.