Prove that God exists

[Runa216]

Cirio said:

There are always two sides to the coin.

You see, if you had posted this sooner, then your topic would've turned out more towards the type of discussion you were hoping to follow. You can't expect to map out a blueprint then wait until a bunch of random people follow it so you can advance with your questions. This whole time I was under the impression that you blindly hated religion and posted this topic to entice religious people and flame them. 

However, as you lightly aluded to, religion has done plenty of good along with bad. I mean, even though religion has hindered some aspects of scientific growth in the past, it has also played a large role in promoting scientific growth. The nations we know now wouldn't be the same (or even be here) if it weren't for religion. Our advances in medicine wouldn't be at this level if it weren't for religious organizations promoting medicine (heck, Muslims created the first Medical schools). I too am a man of science, but you shouldn't assume that people of religion aren't "logical". I am a firm believer in God, but I am also researching in Biochemistry; I believe in evolution but I also believe in creationism. Science hasn't gotten to the point where it can disprove the major things in religion (like creationism of man and the universe) because we're still at the birth of understanding evolution, and we still don't understand our universe, let alone the stars outside of it.

And I don't understand how it is dangerous for people to follow "old religious" books. Your textbooks are outdated because people make newer discoveries and/or disprove statements in older textbooks. There is nothing out there that has "disproved" anything from religion (such as the Quran, which hasn't changed since the day it was written), so why would the book become outdated? Can't you accept that there are people of science who also follow religion deeply? Hell, some of our greatests scientists were strict Jews, but did their religious faiths hold back or dismiss their discoveries in physics and biology? The only major conflict I see in science and religion is between the creation of humans and the overarching question of how life started. That is a question which might take a millenia to answer, but currently these theories aren't strong enough to dismiss the religious claims.

There might be religious terrorists blowing up buildings, but there are religious insitutions that are helping promote human welfare. Take the genocide in Chilie for example, only the churches and synagoges were willing to "hide" and protect the refugees for essential manslaughter when the United States government was denying them entrance to the country. There might be some churches meddling science, but there are also those who promote human advancement and discoveries. You can't have a biased outlook on religion without looking at both sides, much like how I am not biased for religion even though I am a religious man. It is possible for religion and science to grow side by side, but that can't become possible if we have extreme religious people dismissing scientific claims, nor can it be possible when we have extreme atheists like you dismissing religious claims.

What you're hoping for is an ideal world, and I sure as hell will bet that if religion didn't exist, something else would take its place to create this "separated" feeling of yours. There are always two sides to the coin, and one side cannot physically exist without the other.

1 - I've written enough and engaged in enough debates to know damn well that taking 12 pages to explain every facet of my argument as well as give a detailed backstory to my conclusion is a waste of time.  Internet debates tend to be the worst for resorting to Ad Hominem attacks rather than arguing my point or presenting counter-proofs. I find the best and most efficient is to make a statement, offer minimal exposition, and let the debate go from there. 

2 - I'm not assuming anything, I'm basing my claims on many years of observation and many, MANY discussions with VERY intelligent theists.  The smarter a person is, the better they are at arguing using faulty logic and getting away with it. Religious people aren't stupid, but they do tend to be irrational.  Science may not be able to disprove intelligent design, but there's also no evidence supporting it.  "WE can't explain where we came from" is not equal to "since we can't understand it, it must have been done by a higher power."  

3 - Following it isn't dangerous in and of itself, following it and using archaic values to run a country or sway popular opinion is.  when tradition is more important than progress, then we end up in a world where it's still okay to persecute gays, blacks, and women, as examples. 

4 - yes, I already made this point. I know Religion does a lot of good, I know it helps impoverished nations, I know it donates to hospitals and helps in MANY MANY ways, and I'm certainly not complaining about that.  I'm complaining about the violent, aggressive, pushy, fundamentalists that give religion a bad name. 

I DO think religion is very irrational, but we are very irrational beings.  We cling to things that are dangerous, we do things that will hurt us, we eat food that will make us fat, and we buy videogames and movies, all because they make us happy, they give us comfort, just like religion.  Religion is like a blanket of security, gives us hope and unity and all those placebos, but happiness is happiness.  I just REALLY REALLY wish that's all religion was, I wouldn't be so hostile towards if if they kept their faith to themselves.  Instead we live in a world where I can't even answer my door without "HAve you found jesus" morons pushing their beliefs.