vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
None of those mercenaries represented anything sovereign. It's like saying that Switzerland is on the Pope's side because he was protected by Swiss mercenaries. Last I checked, Switzerland was fairly neutral.
As for ethnical cleansing I fully agree. I already agreed that there should have been provisions for the protectoin of the jewish population in whatever they had settled on.
Edit: To me foreign help is fairly well defined as a foreign army or resources (whether it is money or weapons, or other such help). I have wondered before whether Israel woudl have received mroe help, maybe even some army, had the west not been completely decimated by WW2.
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Actually, a lot of the times they did represent soverign things, as you would hire mercenaries from rulers. VS the czechs selling weapons to someon for a quick buck.
I mean... they weren't gifted those weapons. They bought them.
The whole "state intervention" was nothing more then one country selling weapons to another... for profit.
Also, you shouldn't be blaming the west... but the east. The Czechs were aloud to sell Israel the weapons because Stalin liked Israel.
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Trust me I am blaming far more people than just thew jews. In factthey aren't even close to the top for being resposible for this mess on my list.
You are also right, thuogh for some reason I still thought of Russia as west. Though I don't know how you can say it wasn;t heklpful, then say that Stalin let it happen because he liked Israel. I am also kind of surprised to hear this because I don't remember Russian jews being in the best graces of the communists.
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He sold them weapons.
Just how the all those arab armies that were invading Israel all bought their weapons from the British and French and were trained by them.
I mean, where do you think they got the weapons from.
So... yeah. The Arabs actually had more outside help of the same kind if you count the arab league as "inside". Espiecally since the west banned all weapon sales to either side, but kept selling to the arabs that attacked. Meaning the west supported Palestine in the war following the line of thinking that they were "insiders"
And if you don't... the Palestinians clearly had more help in way of direct forces.
Come on already... as someone who likes to support rationallity you should realize this is a mistaken line of arguement.
The Israelis bought weapons they didn't get "outside assistance." That's like saying my grocer is giving me food when I buy it. He isn't. I'm paying him for it.
I'm assuming to Stalin, a Jewish state meant Jewish people would leave so he didn't object to the Chechs making money.
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I am curious now because I remember reading somewhere that there were jewish people who had also served under the British, and were therefore trained and armed by them. Furthermore the funds that Israel used to buy those weapons also came mostly from the US and Russia, again foreign aid. The US and Stalin might as well have just sent them their planes at that point (they may actually ave done so at some point, I haven't actually researched that area much). Without the foreign funding (and let's face it, the US and Russia are far more removed than the people who lived right next door to them) and weapons Israel wouldn't have defended itself.
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Except... it didn't. That money mostly came from the jewish people.
The United states actually went out of their way to try and prevent Israelis from smuggling weapons into Israel... and didn't provide any aid until after they had won their first war. America was largely anti-Israel at this point. The US didn't support Israel until after it became obvious they were going to be around to stay.
and no... they didn't send them their planes. The US didn't support Israel... and Stalin didn't help Israel. They just didn't NOT sell weapons to them.
Which you know... is the normal "non aid" state of affairs.
Also those WW2 pilots your thinking of... were pilots who immigrated to Israel, and became part of Israel. They weren't sent by anyone, and were volenteers... and mostly stayed in Israel.... and did not bring any british weapons with them... and most were there before the war started.
and the US and West mostly tried to prevent them from even going.
Though you know... even if you were right... you'd be COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that the arabs had far more training and support and were sold weapons... specifically buy the governments.
Volenteer pilots in Czech planes bought with the money of Israel
VS
An army trained by the West... specifically to be the armies of those countries, while blockaiding any weapons from coming into Israel....
and it's Israel who got all the outside help?
